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UNLOCK TABLES; /*!40000 ALTER TABLE `phpbb_posts` ENABLE KEYS */; -- -- Table structure for table `phpbb_posts_text` -- DROP TABLE IF EXISTS `phpbb_posts_text`; CREATE TABLE `phpbb_posts_text` ( `post_id` mediumint(8) unsigned NOT NULL default '0', `bbcode_uid` varchar(10) NOT NULL default '', `post_subject` varchar(60) default NULL, `post_text` text, PRIMARY KEY (`post_id`) ) ENGINE=InnoDB DEFAULT CHARSET=latin1; -- -- Dumping data for table `phpbb_posts_text` -- /*!40000 ALTER TABLE `phpbb_posts_text` DISABLE KEYS */; LOCK TABLES `phpbb_posts_text` WRITE; INSERT INTO `phpbb_posts_text` (`post_id`, `bbcode_uid`, `post_subject`, `post_text`) VALUES (2,'87be0147ac','Involving Turbine','The jealous part of me doesnt\' want Turbine involved in this project one bit...however. Turbine does have the grunt power resources we do not have, the ability to get financial capital, and access to Tolkien Enterprises already. We might be able to help them with LOTRO in exchange for a commitment to work on Arda Online. They could hire those of us either on a contingent basis or full time based on our level of commitment and ability to pack up and move. We have the talent here to make LOTRO a far better game as well.\r\n\r\nObviously, I kind of want our project to be independent of Turbine, but if we presented a good business plan to them and they agreed to hire us a creative desgin consultant team, it might work. Thoughts, ideas, questions? Incindentally, the question I\'m going to ask Patience at LOTROG is who is their contact at Tolkien Enterprises?'),(3,'093d7803f9','Those who have said they want to help...','Lord Vorontur: \"a proof-reader for lore purpose, if you wish it.\"\r\nMihal: lore & language?\r\nLukaria: music'),(4,'d8064e0e86','Others working on the same thing...','Ep mentions Morth, Tiberius, and herself are working on a similar project. I have no idea as to their progress, but I have sent Morth a pm to see if we can meet to discuss the idea. He lives in the Metro Detroit area as well.'),(5,'125246e016','Lore','I would be interested in establishing a lore-mastery track in Arda Online (AO). Lore mastery could include much of what we include in the EoI Loremaster class--magic, nature lore, healing, geography, and the like.\r\n\r\nSome of these would branch off into separate professions, as the music/bardcraft domain is doing now. In fact, a set of lore-mastery professional tracks would be nice.\r\n\r\nOne such specialty that is of special interest to me is a nature-lore track, in which one gains the ability to communicate with animals (possibly tame them and make friends of them), herblore, which might include potion-making, and possibly weather lore of some sort.\r\n\r\nHealing is an obvious skill track. There could be different kinds of healing. Just using the two examples we have so far (music and nature lore), we could have music used for some kinds of healing, such as stress or depression, and nature lore used for diagnosis of illness, potions, herbal remedies, infusions and teas, and so on.\r\n\r\nA possible combination of nature lore and healing would be animal healing.\r\n\r\nThe potential of this kind of thing is almost endless. Various skills and areas of knowledge could be combined by players for themselves into a wide range of individual professions.\r\n\r\nThere would be some overlap with crafting (which probably deserves its own separate thread). One key example would be creation of healing supplies. Another, of course, would be creation of musical instruments of varying levels of complexity and quality.\r\n\r\nLoremasters could serve as teachers. For example, a bard-in-training might come to a loremaster for the history of an event or even existing verse and lays. These would then be used to compose an original song, under the tutelage of a bardmaster. These would probably be interactions among players, though some of it could be automated into NPCs.\r\n\r\nThat\'s probably enough to start us off. I look forward to continuing discussion.'),(9,'ffbfe03779','Read First!','I can\'t think of much to put here yet other then to say read everything. If you have any questions, you can always pm me.'),(11,'21475c7f2e','Music','Hey Everyone :)\r\n\r\nJust a posting here to say hello!\r\n\r\nI am interested in the muscial aspects and possibilities of all this. Though very early, there are several different areas that music would be incorporated. Not just a score that would need to be composed, but many other areas as well.\r\n\r\nThese things could indeed be player written if the powers that be chose to accept submissions. It can be something that is also commissioned if we chose. The easiest and hardest **smile** route would be to use music already composed, obtain permission, and then put it in.\r\n\r\nNot to mention, (and this is the really exciting part imo) the actual musical gameplay aspects of this. This under most likely either an \"artisan\" type skill or an \"entertainer\" type skill. Conversely, it could be included in an Orator type of role as well, if you consider that those who are great bards would tend to be great orators. \r\n\r\nAnyways, I will go through and begin throwng out some ideas in a reply to this post (or perhaps a separate one if this becomes convoluted) - thinking aloud so to speak, about this subject, and let others steer the boat toward what seems most appropriate.\r\n\r\nIn addition, I do know many talented musicians, singers, and I work with an awesome producer right now as well in my own recording. Chances are I could get access to choirs, professional singers (opera and theatre and jazz and pop - well many genre\'s). \r\n\r\nIf you are into the artisan or music area, lets talk shall we? Combining resources will be huge on this.\r\n\r\nI can\'t say how exciting this idea is. Thanks for letting me be a lil part of the think tank.\r\n\r\nLastly, if there is anything I cannot say here in public, let me know or move this post.\r\n\r\nChel aka Lukaria'),(12,'c442a90eb9','','[quote:c442a90eb9] Crinan:\r\n \r\nWhile I\'m not a musician, I like the sound of this. Having a system that allows users to compose music and have other users listen to another user (or even the same user who composed it) preform works. \r\n\r\nFirst, we must recognize formally that most users will not have the software tools to compose music. So to begin, what does a user have to have to compose music? Do we allow only music created with some in game system in or do we let them incorporate pieces they have recorded elsewhere? Thoughts or other ideas?\r\n[/quote:c442a90eb9]\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\nWould be a nightmare I think to have people actually import their own pieces to use in game. I am not a programmer, but I\'ve used programs to write music and there are a ton out there. To write in the capability to import the music, wow, that would be.... very involved, stress the very. \r\n\r\nI think take a step back - ask whether we want that included or not. \r\n\r\nHow wide would that appeal be? Do we want that capability in the game? If so, on what scale.. large scale (as in entire player written compositions) or small scale (players choose pre-written parts and splice them together for a unique song)? Or even simpler? \r\n\r\nHmmmm............. \r\n\r\nLike I said, this could go anywhere........... someone steer....... \r\n\r\n\r\n[quote:c442a90eb9]Crinan:\r\n\r\n\r\nFor now, I would steer away from deciding something because it would be complex to program. We are in the design phase, we shouldnt be worried about \"if\" it can be done. But on the other hand its not a bad idea to keep it in mind. [/quote:c442a90eb9]\r\n\r\nOk, you\'re right........ and it could be done anyways. Just dpeends on how much time we wanted spent on it, so.\r\n\r\nGosh, wouldn\'t that rock though to compose some music, pair with a poet friend, and produce a completely new song, in Sindarin even.... ahhhhhhh fun! And what a way to express yourself.....\r\n\r\n[quote:c442a90eb9]Cinan: As a musician, what would entice you to compose music in game? How did you envision the player interacting with the music? Creation? Modification? Oratory? Writing lyrics? Singing their lyrics? \r\n\r\nWould a system for building pieces of music be used? Could it produce something other players would want to listen to? \r\n\r\nPassive or Interactive? Naturally, it\'ll lie inbetween but where? \r\n\r\nEnvision yourself as a player, what would you want to do with music?\r\n[/quote:c442a90eb9]\r\n\r\nWell that\'s so very individual, as composition itself is.\r\n\r\nLet\'s look at two different composition scenarios, just to start with:\r\n\r\n1) You have normal Joe/Jane who enjoyed playing the bard archtype in other games. Let\'s assume this person actually anjoys music in RL. Your normal, average person may or may not be interested in composing.\r\n\r\nHowever, if we had a system where you could say - choose instrumentation and voicings, choose pre-composed snippets perhaps even as short as 2 measures long, though most likely 4 to 8 would be better, choose keys, etc, major or minor. Well, they could conceivably compose a piece of music that was decent. After all, if we pre-write the musical segments and all they do is put them together, in essence they are arrangers, not composers.\r\n\r\nThis would give the creative team more control over the musical aspects of the game as well as giving players a chance to express themselves. keep in mind, we could have snippet with lyrics already written as well..... \r\n\r\n2) Let\'s move to a super advanced composition aspect (and yes I am talking in theory) - you could actually incoprate an entire midi composition program into the game. Again, difficult in some aspects, depending on the scale, but not impossible. In this case, a person could completely compose their own original music, including voicings, instrumentation, keys, etc. We could limit that if and as we chose to do, perhaps by skill level or race or combinations of both.\r\n\r\nThis gives the player more creative control, in fact, it gives them complete creative control. While this ncourages players to compose and write music that could in fact, be intensely gorgeous, it also means we could get Phat Lewt Doodz Musical Prowess (tm).\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nI write my own music in RL. Imo, what would be best would be to create a very lively, interdependant artisic community. It would be best if players were able to simply arrange music, if they so chose to do so. However, I think adding in at least [i:c442a90eb9]some[/i:c442a90eb9] possibility to compose totally from scratch should be an option.\r\n\r\nLook at it this way - have you all seen Boba\'s Vette video? Written by a player, its now being performed in public. Have you all noticed that orchestra\'s are now performing concerts of all Final Fantasy Music - including the vocal music? And its being sold out - to young people who are gamers..... not music elite......\r\n\r\nCheck these two links out for information:\r\n[url=http://swvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Movies.List&category_select_id=2]Vette Video[/url]\r\n\r\n[url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=final+fantasy+music]Google Hit list of Final Fantasy Music Sites[/url]\r\nWhen ya hit the google one just hit the first and second links for an example of the fanfollowing for music in games.\r\n\r\nLosing focus and I need to get rolling... so will stop here and pick this up later on.\r\n\r\nI\'ll just say in clsoing, the biggest thing you want for a player I think in almost any aspect of any game is variety. You want to give them lots of choices about which way to go with their characters. And like the elves themselves, the ability to change that choice. Perhaps someone is an artisan for 1000 years, then decides they wish to be a master swordsman...... the changing of professions that SWG has is imo, one of that game\'s best features.\r\n\r\nSo, musically speaking, having both preset and the ability to compose internally (or import I guess if the programmers wanted to handle that) would be great.\r\n\r\nInteraction - I would think that the best way would be to have players be able to play their compositions for each other, perhaps have concerts or even composition contests. There would need to be some incentive for the non-musical player to attend. perhaps these could be GM events in which titles or items are won by the bards. Perhaps there is a popular vote. \r\n\r\nPerhaps those with the highest composition abilities can actually use their music in battle to increase stats of their fellows, or to decrease the stats of the mobs.\r\n\r\nHmmmmmmm ok I gotta go, starting to get unfocused here... will separate this up later fo easier discussion unless someone beats me to it.\r\n\r\n**Edited cause spelling counts but I hate spellcheck!**'),(13,'68c896e7d6','','[quote:68c896e7d6]we could have music used for some kinds of healing, such as stress or depression,[/quote:68c896e7d6]\r\n\r\nExcellent idea! \r\n\r\nActually, excellent all around on the lore lines you are talking about. I mostly play healers in any rpg, woudn\'t mind sticking my nose into that line.'),(14,'aa2a0d2382','','[quote:aa2a0d2382]Lukaria:\r\n\r\nLike I said, this could go anywhere........... someone steer....... [/quote:aa2a0d2382]\r\n\r\nI\'ll vote for you to steer all musical aspects. You have extensive knowledge of music which makes you the prime candadite.\r\n\r\n\r\nI think we could go with user submitted works provided that we screen them. We simply specify the file type and someone will decide if it\'s worth.\r\n\r\nI like the idea of having many parts and pieces for them to arrange and create something new out of it. Perhaps this is a higher level skill, something they arrange must recieve a high enough score (score given by listeners) to get credit for it (Alternative is they submit something they have done and we approve it, filtering out leetspeak, and they can play it and get a score the same way). The lower levels will be filled with music that is prewritten by someone. \r\n\r\nI\'m not sure how to handle lyrics. I believe they should be seperated from pieces of music, which means we would have to have every word in every key ect. To many really. I\'d like to hear ideas on this. The simplest solution would be that its just text that scrolls as they play.\r\n\r\nThe last thing I\'ll say is that I would like to steer away from the typical bard class. I dont really see people singing or playing while their allies are fighting for their lives. But I can see them being in the local in read to soothe away the pain and hardships of the locals(healing). And even inspiring them to do greatness(buffs).'),(15,'bfca27318a','Big Rambling Goal statement','[quote:bfca27318a=\"Crinan\"]Seregnin,\r\n\r\nI was wondering if we/I could get your vision and goals for this project. I think it would help in the initial design phase if we had an idea of our goals.\r\n\r\nI have a few specific questions:\r\n\r\nWe are developing a player driven game where they are very interactive with the developers?\r\n\r\nA limit on who gets to play? (ie. you apply and devs decide if you get to play)\r\n\r\nHad others but forgot them...Anyway, I look forward to hearing your answers.\r\n\r\nCrinan,\r\nMatthew Myatt[/quote:bfca27318a]\r\n\r\nThis game will be founded on a bedrock of community and lore first. The two things I think Turbine is lacking in with LOTRO. We will need significant player interaction with devs. This can take the form of devs giving special quests or distributing unique items. We\'ll also have special events similar to TN for just the Ringers. Our fans will help us create this game. Imagine if the Devs actually listened to what a lot of the Mahanaxar were saying with LOTRO development.\r\n\r\nEverything hinges on getting CT\'s permission to use the rights. That is my masters project which will be done in approximately two years. If this doesn\'t work, we could try consulting with Turbine to reinvigorate LOTRO.\r\n\r\nThe general outline for lore is already here: music, art, writing. We\'ll have to offer a lot of choices to our customers in order to succeed.\r\n\r\nI envision this game to mostly appeal to an upper scale clientele. We will be the Mercedes Benz of games. As such, we\'ll ask a higher fee such as $25/month. Our market will be smaller but better educated. Distribution will be only online unless we team up with Turbine. \r\n\r\nStill musing over having customers apply to play our game...perhaps just a very basic 5 question test to keep l33t people out. We\'ll have to be careful so as not to offend non-native speakers however. There is more but all I can think of for now.'),(16,'55177e1b54','','I\'ve always loved Finrod\'s wizard duel with Sauron where they sing or chant songs of power and beauty. Perhaps for certain enemies, only a bard could allay them...or they would at least be more susceptible to that type of attack.'),(17,'fedc38a001','','Hmm... *thinks very hard* (I havnt read the Sil in a long time so if I get the name wronge...forgive me) If I recall correctly, Eru, crafted the world through music (and song?). Based on this, I can see that elvish \"magic\" would be very melodic. Hmm.... Perhaps there is more to this than I thought. \r\n\r\nWell, I am by no means a lore-master. So, if they dont see any issues with it, works for me.'),(19,'b2561f393f','','Just a quick chime in -\r\n\r\nSee? There really are tons of possiblities.\r\n\r\nYes, the world was crafted through song. If you read the Sil again, you\'ll notice how much is said about how the music flowed together wonderfully, then all of a sudden - dissonace! Yeah bad guy enters in.... The subsequent \"fight\" was musically based. The world was formed , and the dissonace kept as it was part of the whole.\r\n\r\nIndeed, any \"Songs of Power\" were at the very least - chants. Which, when i think about it, would require as much oratorial skill as musical.\r\n\r\nChanting doesn\'t require much singing, its mostly rhythmic in nature with very few pitch changes, those pitch changes that do occur are usually tonal in nature, 4ths and 5ths, 3rds and 6ths perhaps.\r\n\r\nSinging Songs of power tho - hmmmmm - wow. Now that could be some kind of ultimate skill to be reached in this skill tree. \r\n\r\nAnd the lyrics! Those are key to this. Not my forte at all. All in all, the greatest of those in singing Songs of power, would have been those skilled in poetry as much as music.\r\n\r\nWhat would be totally fun would be a \"war\" of Songs of Power, where people could team up against other teams. Ok, getting ahead here.........\r\n\r\nWe do not need a typical bardic archtype, but if this is done in some kind if skill tree, rather than a \"class\" choice so to speak... then it becomes something anyone could aspire to.\r\n\r\nI do think some kind of very cool GM/dev title or special skill should be granted. Think of a yearly or bi-yearly competition between \r\n\"magic\" users in which they competed via \"Songs of power\" with the ultimate prize being a special ability/ \"spell\" for lack of a better word - bestowed by a GM/dev - for use by that character. Example - a special ability useable in battle, once per day or something, by that character. \r\n\r\n\r\nOh getting carried away..... off to bed.\r\n\r\n\r\nThese lore areas truly overlap. I\'ll knuckle down and lay out a more linear line for us to discuss.\r\n\r\nCri- keep the ideas rolling ........... you don\'t need to be any kind of musical expert in order to have an idea about the area. in fact, we need non-musical people to look at it and see whether its appealing at all.....'),(20,'a36f6b616c','','http://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2330\r\n\r\nThis is a great discussion of first age powers attainable by the eldar. While I feel most of these are too great for everyday player characters, some would translate, albeit at a lower level.'),(21,'22184d97b0','','Well, if I had to appraise the success and achievments of the Turbine team right now, I would say they have failed. But that is likely due to the individual or few individuals running the operation, who have been influenced by $$ and profit margins. I\'m sure there are very talented people in the ranks of programmers and artists and even developers, but they are being poorly led IMO. So unless it is possible to retain control of what happens or does not happen as far as design and direction are concerned, I would not solicit Turbine. \r\n\r\nI think its easier to start fresh, with new people, new ideas untainted by the bad habits acquired from working at Turbine. I don\'t think the powers withing Turbine would lend out their team on a \'consulting\' basis to us, nor would they allow us in to essentially take over (which is what it would take to fix the game as I see it). But you never know and asking can\'t hurt I don\'t think. I would suggest once the time is right to solicit or fish for possible positions (under the pretense that we are doing this as a community effort type thing) and see who bites or shows interest.\r\n\r\nCelebmirtan'),(22,'182578a14d','','I think my first step is trying to obtain some means of contacting Tolkien Enterprises. I\'ll try a google search first for an address. If anyone else things of anything, let me know.'),(23,'29a44a4d71','','First clue. Tolkien Enterprises is worthless. They are Saul Zents dba Tolkien Enterprises.'),(24,'9fde158e8f','','So I need Ct\'s physical address for the rights to the Silmarillion.'),(25,'7731f41a3a','','\"...Christopher Tolkien is the only surviving son of J.R.R. Tolkien,\r\nand is most well known for his stewardship of his father\'s estate, and\r\nthe editing of his father\'s works...\r\n\r\n...Christopher Tolkien has jealously guarded the Tolkien legacy for\r\nover 30 years. Anxious not to allow his father\'s work to be cheapened\r\nor belittled, the copyright on all aspects of the works has been\r\nfiercely protected. Though J.R.R. Tolkien sold the film rights to The\r\nLord of the Rings in 1969, Christopher has long insisted that the\r\nbooks are not suited to movie interpretation, and was vehemently\r\nopposed to the recently released New Line Cinema trilogy.\r\n\r\nHis championship of his father\'s work has led him to shun his only\r\nchild, Simon. When Simon Tolkien expressed his support for the movie\r\ntrilogy, Christopher Tolkien effectively disowned him, barring him\r\nfrom the board of the Tolkien Company, despite the fact that\r\nChristopher\'s second wife Baillie and nephew Michael were a part of\r\nthe organization.\r\n\r\nSimon Tolkien said in an interview: \"He communicates with me now\r\nthrough his lawyer, so I have to live on the basis that he will never\r\nspeak to me again as long as he lives. He will never see my children.\r\nHe will never have anything to do with me.\"\r\n\r\nChristopher Tolkien\'s attitude has offended many people. Author\r\nMichael Perry fought the Tolkien Estate in a U.S. court for a year to\r\nbe able to publish his book length chronology of The Lord of the\r\nRings: \"Untangling Tolkien\". Director Peter Jackson\'s plans for a\r\nmuseum in Wellington, New Zealand displaying the props and sets used\r\nin the movies have stalled because of Christopher Tolkien\'s refusal.\r\nAccess to Tolkien\'s notes on the languages of Arda is extremely\r\nlimited.\r\n\r\nOn the other hand, without Christopher\'s life work with his father\'s\r\nlegacy, we would not have access to the majority of the work on\r\nMiddle-earth. No-one can deny that he has the right to control the use\r\nof J.R.R. Tolkien\'s literary estate, and his dedication to his task is\r\npraiseworthy...\"\r\n\r\n\r\nSearching for contact information for Christopher Tolkien proved\r\ndifficult and several others have posted about the net seeking the\r\nsame information as noted in this newsgroup:\r\n\r\nhttp://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/b651f516423e8405/9e04d55fc7d59c4e?q=%22contact+christopher+tolkien%22&rnum=1&hl=en#9e04d55fc7d59c4e\r\n\r\n\"...I am a writer who needs to contact Christopher Tolkien the son of JRR Tolkien. \r\n\r\nThis issue is personal and involves some legal matters. Does anyone\r\nknow how I could get in contact with him? Is Chris Tolkien still\r\nalive?\r\n\r\nAny help I could get would be greatly appreciated...\r\n\r\n\r\n...As with any author, you can send a letter to his publisher for\r\nforwarding. If this involve \"legal matters\", the publisher will\r\ncertainly be involved in addition to (perhaps instead of) Mr.\r\nTolkien...\"\r\n\r\nAnother thread notes:\r\n\r\n\"...Write to him in care of Houghton Mifflin Company or HarperCollins\r\nand they will forward the letter to him. I don\'t know how often he\r\nresponds to readers\' questions, but he has responded to SOME people\r\n(and even given mention to a few Tolkien Society members in HOME who\r\nwrote to him about\r\nobscure facts and/or errata)...\" \r\n\r\n \"...according to the Houghton Mifflin website \r\nhttp://www.hmco.com/ this is the address to use: \r\n\r\n\r\n Author\'s Name \r\n c/o Houghton Mifflin Company \r\n 222 Berkeley Street \r\n Boston, MA 02116-3764 ...\"\r\n\r\nBest of luck obtaining rights to use the quote!'),(27,'f613a557e6','','I am writing to you in the hopes that I might meet you one day to discuss an idea I have that I think you might agree is in humanity’s best interest. I am not crazy, please do not throw away the letter away yet I implore! I come to you first as a Christian and from a position of desiring to help others. Yet, I am full aware that your father knew that: \"that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others--speedily and according to the benefactor\'s own plans--is a recurrent motive\" I\r\n\r\nLet me explain a little further. We want to create a video game not for the masses (at least not at first), but for the thinking person. This desire sprang from the following of a video game called Lord of the Rings Online affiliated with your favorite company the Saul Zentz company dba Tolkien Enterprises. We (my team and I) have grown sick and tired of seeing the potential of their license squandered by the suits in charge. We have literally cried to see them make a mockery of the works and us the fans. So, one day we decided to make our own game. \r\n\r\nA game that the true Tolkien lover would want to play. A game for someone who wants to think and have fun. A game that I want to actually play and a game that maybe you or your father might enjoy playing. A game where we can escape from the realities of our cruel world for a little while then go back to our lives as mother, father, doctor, lawyer, customer service representative etc… \r\n\r\nWe are not financed at the moment, but that is a secondary consideration. We know that this will live or die with you first. I am not looking to make a profit from the work or for myself. Maybe a profit only for humanity.\r\n\r\nThink about it. The internet is the mind of society today and like most things, it can be used for good or for evil. The generation just behind my own (I am 26) has grown up knowing the internet for the majority of their lives. It will connect societies across the globe no matter what you decide. Why not leave a lasting legacy on it as your father did in literature? \r\n\r\nHelp make us the first video game (a muti-billion dollar industry) based on intellect first and profits only as a seconday consideration. The money will follow if you agree to this and you can donate it to whatever cause you want as far as I am concerned. I will work for food and a place to live under a tree.\r\n\r\nSincerely, \r\n\r\nShaghne Manning\r\n\r\nP.S. Please let me at least know what your obejctions are so I can address them if you are not immediately interested. I should warn you that I am imminently persistent and I will write to you and the Tolkien company until I die. If I do not suceed, I will pass the torch to my son not yet born.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nWORKS CITED\r\n\r\n\r\nTolkien, Christopher, \"Forward,\" The Silmarillion.\r\n Ed. Christopher Tolkien. HarperCollins, 1999: pp. vii-ix.\r\n\r\nby J.R.R. Tolkien (in relevant order):\r\n The Silmarillion. Ed. Christopher Tolkien. HarperCollins, 1999.\r\n \"Preface; Letter to Milton Waldman, 1951,\" pp. x-xxiv.\r\n.'),(28,'bf102732ea','God moving over the face of the waters','If we decide to have an entry piece for when the game first begins, I highly recommend we seek out getting permsission to Moby\'s \"God moving over the face of the waters\". I know I\'m getting way ahead of myself here, but I thought I\'d mention it anway. This is all dependent of course if we need to have some entry movie explaining the world to our customers.'),(31,'73af88d6f3','','Excellent!'),(32,'d2b800408e','','I\'ll go check it out :)'),(33,'5594b5e8ff','','Here are some proposed revisions that Seregnin asked me to post in this forum. I have reposted it so that I can make a few further edits in it (typos and some further wording changes). \r\n\r\nDear Mr. Tolkien:\r\n\r\nYou no doubt get many letters with proposals for projects based on your father’s work and yours. This is another such proposal, one which I hope you will take the time to examine.\r\n\r\nI am writing to you in the hope of initiating dialogue on developing a way to bring Middle Earth to the world in such a way that others can immerse themselves in it, develop a deeper understanding of its nature and of the philosophy that lie behind it. The mythology of Arda is a thing of beauty, one from which folk of all religions can benefit. I would like to use the ever more sophisticated medium of electronic gaming to make all of this accessible to those who would appreciate more than a wonderful story.\r\n\r\nMy team--all well versed in the lore of Arda--and I are fully aware that your father had deep concerns about the dangers of technology, and yet technology is with us to stay. We hope to harness it for good, to bring not only Arda to those who have come to love it through the print medium, but also the profound spirituality that pervades it. Indeed we are also aware that your father believed: \"that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others--speedily and according to the benefactor\'s own plans...\" We never forget this wisdom, and yet each age uses the technology available to it, whether it be oxcarts and palantiri, or airplanes and the Internet.\r\n\r\nLet me explain a little further. We seek to create a virtual, interactive world not for the masses (at least not at first), but for the thinking person. This desire arose from our following of a video game called \'Lord of the Rings Online\' licensed by the Saul Zentz company dba Tolkien Enterprises. We have grown that the potential of their license is being squandered by managers and businessmen in charge of decision-making that should be left to those who love Middle Earth. We fear that they may make a mockery of the books and a disappointment to us who love Arda. So, one day we decided to make our own world, in the form of yet another game--a virtual, interactive world, but one that would honor the principles in which your father believed and which you have protected so carefully. \r\n\r\nWe hope that this will be a world in which the true Tolkien lover would want to live and iinteract, a place for someone who wants to think and have fun at the same time. If we must call it a game, it would be one that I want to actually play and one that maybe even you or your father might enjoy playing. It could be a place where we can escape from the harsh realities of our world to one where we can live in another set of meaningful circumstances for a little while, and then go back to our lives as mother, father, doctor, lawyer, customer service representative etc…\r\n\r\nWe are not financed at the moment, but that is a secondary consideration for us, and indeed, my team and I are not looking to make a profit from the work or for ourselves. We know that this proposal will live or die with you first.. With your blessing, we do not anticipate difficulty in finding financial support.\r\n\r\nThe internet is the mind of society today and like most things, it can be used for good or for evil. The generation just behind my own (I am 26) has grown up knowing the internet for the majority of their lives. It will connect societies across the globe no matter what you decide. We suggest that through it, you can leave a lasting legacy on it as your father did in print literature.\r\n\r\nHelp make us the first electronic game that is based on intellect first and profits only as a seconday consideration. The money will follow if you agree to this, and you can donate whatever you may realize from it to whatever cause you want as far as I am concerned. I will work for food and a place to live. The rest of my team, whose ages range from the twenties to the sixties, have the same level of dedication.\r\n\r\nSincerely,\r\n\r\nShaghne Manning\r\n\r\nP.S. If you are not interested, please let me at least know what your obejctions are so I can address them. I should warn you that I am persistent when inspired. If I do not succeed, I will pass the torch to my children not yet born.'),(34,'40c3e98f63','','I went and listened to this piece... Good call on that one Seregnin. It felt very right for an intro movie.'),(35,'19a2b27456','','Shaghne,\r\n \r\n I think the letter is good, but what exactly are you asking of him? Rights to the Sil? Rights to use material prior to LoTR? I think it would be good to add what exactly you want from him. I don\'t think he can give you rights to any LOTR era stuff, as I am sure he either does not possess them to give, as TE owns those rights and can delegate them as they wish (ex., Turbine and TE). So we may be asking the wrong person if you are wanting this project to focus on late 3rd Age Middle Earth.\r\n\r\n Another idea perhaps before you send this letter out is to find someone who has already asked CT for something along these lines and was rejected. You may learn something from them which may help you write the perfect letter that will hit some personal chord with Christopher. I would think that this letter is your one and only shot at soliciting a response. I would venture to guess that if Christopher even gets the letter via Houghton Mifflin and reads it, he will decide then whether to dismiss it as foolishness or give it some consideration. He more or less disowned his son over the movies, I really am sceptical that he will grant our group rights to make a game out of it, especially if we are talking about material he can give rights to, which to my recollection is Sil era and pre War of the Ring. \r\n He holds his Fathers work too close to his own heart and I can not see him relinquishing a shred of it out to anyone. What possibly can we say on our behalf that will change that? That we are loyal? dedicated TRUE fans? Who are we really trying to kid here? I am very skeptical as you know from our previous discussion about this matter, but I just don\'t see this going anywhere because CT will not budge, not even for his family. If there is a soft spot in his heart, I would surely think it to his family. What about writing this letter to Simon first to see what he thinks. He is closer to our generation, knows more about technology and I am pretty sure he is aware of computer games and the like. Maybe some feedback from him about this would be good to have.\r\n Back to the letter a minute. So he gets it, reads it, and tosses it. Are you planning on writing him again and again? He will just tell HM to refuse any further correspodence with us and that will be the end of it. Which brings me back to the point that this letter has to be the holy grail of requests. Do you feel this request stands out far above the 1000\'s of others and hits CT in his soft spot (if there was such a thing?). Just think more on that, I know this has been on yours and everyone\'s mind since the idea first started, but please be sure on this before you postage it. I would love to see this work but as you stated, we sink or swim with this letter and Christopher. \r\n\r\nCelebmirtan'),(36,'f768454924','','^^^\r\nwas my post, obviously.. sorry I forgot to log in.\r\n\r\n\r\nCeleb'),(37,'b92cdf1cef','','It\'s not there yet. I think we need to add more to it saying yes rights to the silmarillion which would included 1st, 2nd, and 3rd age I believe. It also needs to have added some things and we\'ll take out the intergenerational threat. Revealing a strategy loses some impace if the person it\'s directed towards already knows it. The letter needs to be signed by kara a ph.d....a doctor m.d.=loa and a tolkien society member at the least. If we can\'t convince one of those, how will we ever convince CT? Lots of work to do before this thing is sent. I would prefer it if I had my M.A. in literature which is another two years off at least.\r\n\r\nIn the meantime, ep, tibs, and morth are working on a 4th age project open source. I hope one of them can explain it better. I think this should give everyone a good chance to hone their skills.'),(38,'4c02c8f93b','','I\'ve hit on an alternate strategy for the meanwhile. I\'m going to ask him what he thinks of my masters project which will is tentatively titled \"Understanding Tolkien: the 4th age revealed\". Basically, it will explore the great similarities between the Silmarillion and the Bible. It will reveal a lot of Tolkien\'s allegory that he supposedly hated. Maybe he will bribe me with the rights to the video game in order to shut up. :)'),(39,'82bf6a11f1','','1. How can we hook up with Tibs, Morth, and ep? (or have we already done so?)\r\n\r\n2. Getting CT\'s blessing and possible participation in your master\'s project could be a good move. However, I suggest that you try not to antagonize CT in any way, including pushing analogies that he will react badly to. After all, later on, you want to be able to approach him with respect to the Silmarillion and other such things, and you don\'t want him to have a bad feeling about you. (What you said could have been a joke, but just in case it wasn\'t, I\'m suggesting not alienating him.)'),(41,'3a46fd0f42','','1.) I\'ve already talked to ep via phone and she\'s on board...not sure about Tibs and Morth yet...they\'re never around.\r\n\r\n2.) CT I will write a friendly missive to asking him how much he wants me to reveal. I will try friendship first before I just write my dissertation on Tolkien, Allegory, and the Bible.'),(42,'2cbcf1d73f','','Has there been any response to your inqueries to Morth, ep, et. al.? Any idea of the tack they are taking?'),(43,'ad9237bd73','','ep is on board with the project but Tibs and Morth have been incommunicado. I\'ve sent them both invitations to check out the boards...I imagine their very busy. I have a feeling while we\'re waiting to obtain rights which wont\' be obtainable for at the least probably two years, we could be helping them with their project which is based on doing a 4th age mmorpg. I see us as working on the same project, just different ages.'),(44,'a39a125aa6','Design ideas','http://www.gamespy.com/articles/595/595975p5.html\r\n\r\nHere is an interesting read about the future of game design. Obviously, it\'s not completely equatable to our game, but the point of not needing an army of game designers if we allow customers to create is well taken.'),(45,'2a90fce80a','Getting an audience with CT...','Since I sort of overtook the involving Turbine thread, I\'ll post more about getting to know CT here instead. Anyone know boar taming?\r\n\r\nhttp://blogumentary.typepad.com/chuck/2004/01/christopher_tol.html'),(46,'4d3342a86f','','Dear Prof. Tolkien:\r\n\r\nI know you don’t normally respond to letters such as these, but I have a concern that I think you may be interested in. I am beginning my Master’s program in English Literature and have been considering the topic of my Master’s project already. My paper is tentatively titled: Understanding Tolkien: the Fourth Age of Man revealed. The paper will focus on primarily the relationship between the Book of Revelation and the Dagor Dagorath. I will also make mention of Genesis and the Music of the Ainur. Now, of course, there is not much spoken of the Dagor Dagorath in the Lost Tales. I am hoping you might help me with any other knowledge or materials you might possess that would elucidate this subject. If you object to this subject matter, please tell me now before I begin such a work. I fear that it desperately wants to escape my mind and will prove all to easy yet difficult to write. Thank you for your assistance in this matter.\r\n\r\nSincerely,\r\n\r\nShaghne Manning'),(47,'47e14b47ac','','I\'m glad to see Spore getting more and more press coverage. I saw a live demo given by the man himself in march and was very impressed with what he was doing. The technical ideas that have been developed for Spore are very exciting. One of the things that I didnt see mentioned, granted I only scimmed the article. Is that the use of the algorithms to create the creatures (which allows for the creativity and the emergent behavior the mention) also means that the size of a file that defines a creature is incredibly small. Think size of large text file... Instead of the 3d model and textures... \r\n\r\nYou are very correct in saying that this will be important for our game. It is strikingly similar to how the open source guys function. You have a core of a few programmers and one head guy that leads the mess. But you have hundreds and hundreds of other programmers solving problems and sending them in. Which means you end up with software better than most professionally built software...linux anyone? \r\n\r\nIn Spore, they have players create content and then use that content to populate the game...what if we allowed players to create quests, and who knows what else...that we would reuse... Suddenly having lots and lots of developer interaction is seeming much easier to accomplish, because we\'ll have a bunch of mini-developers running around :)'),(48,'ef06339427','','There will need to be structure still. Tathar can be very helpful too when he returns from his break. He\'s very good at software and things like linux...though I dont\' understand them very well. The most equatable thing I know is phpbb which powers these forum boards. Even with that, I don\'t know the code too well...just enough to get buy and tweak it a little.\r\n\r\nWe\'ll need people to take charge over their respective divisions. For instance, Crinan and Tathar could head up design division. Lukaria could head up music division which obviously will have to work in conjunction with design etc... I\'ll make anyone moderator of their division who asks...well almost anyone. You must still be competent afterall. \r\n\r\n*eyes Crinan* ;)'),(49,'55deffe246','','There will most definetly have to be structure, and, nows the time to pitch an idea that I heard about that I think might fit it here.\r\n\r\nIf we were to create a tool that let them create their own story/quests... Because its not freeform, we can add rules and limit what their quests can do/be. But if we do it in a modular way...we get a bunch of unique quests, where we control what the quests can consist of. But we end up with way more quests than we could create in that amount of time.\r\n\r\nNote: quest and story are relatively interchangable here.'),(50,'1d032ab53a','','Crinan, you\'re hired! Let me make you moderator of our design section.'),(51,'bb460449bb','','We need to be thinking about who is best for certain jobs. Eventually, we\'ll need someone handling: boring things like licensing: seregnin & karakedi, planning=all of us, insurance=?, lawyer=Isilriel, accountant=me for now...I hate accounting.'),(52,'86c62af0b7','','Ohh...Your a sneaky one! Ok fine you convinced me.'),(53,'67d7446d3a','','Morth \"Greg\" has been without computer access for some time hence his continued silence. He also is on board with the project. I talked with ep again today and she let me know. I have a feeling we\'re going to be helping them with their 4th age project first simply due to licensing issues. CT may very well have to die before anyone is willing to grant rights to the Silmarillion.'),(54,'fe3a881ad0','Programming language','Crinan, is there a way to program in restrictions to our code something like: if elves=1 do not allow attack=7 (coded as a 7 for example) with hobbits=4?\r\n\r\nOr does it have to be programmed all as 0\'s and 1\'s?\r\n\r\nIf we could do this, it would keep our software small and allow us to make software code changes on the fly if they sync up with our server. This way as exploits in our quest system come about we can react right away. Similar to the way phpbb is continually updating as people discover flaws in it.'),(56,'4d727bfd21','','As we discussed in MSN, coding is usually done in something more resembling human languages and then \'translated\' into binary (0s and 1s) so that the computer can read it faster. Binary is extremely human-unfriendly (a great burden on working memory), so most programming languages use words, numbers, and symbols with a precise syntax.\r\n\r\nI\'m not sure about some of the newer systems, of which Spore is an example. It may be less \'digital\' and more \'neural.\' (To my understanding, the latter type is the kind that has been developed to \'learn\' as it goes along. Crinan please correct me if I\'m wrong.)'),(57,'a0b8a7184a','','I\'m on board, kinsman.\r\nI can also assist in the keeping up of good spirits, having a coaching diploma(youth leadership, but I can apply it to most things)\r\n\r\nThe ball is rolling.\r\nThis is going to be something great, I can feel it.'),(58,'a43fb977df','','Great letter, for sure.\r\nI think the team effort will convince him(CT, that being)\r\n\r\nKarakedi and Seregnin, together you will write something positively persuading.\r\n\r\nEver the optimist, I look forward to more news.'),(59,'3041734e51','','Just to drop a line......\r\nLukaria, if you wish any help, I am a musician/vocalist/lyricist.\r\n\r\nI have, in the past, written some Lord of the Rings inspired songs(well, actually, they were about certain characters/happenings/etc etc)\r\n....and I was planning to write some about the Silmarillion and the First Age at some point......If you wish it, I could mail you some of my lyrics(Tolkien-inspired and other)for you to read so you could gather some idea of my capabilities.\r\n\r\nAlso, when the time comes, I would gladly do any vocals for songs, having a mini home-studio.'),(60,'d36906b916','','I\'m pretty good at content design (not programming) but \'adventure\' planning/developing \"wheels turning within wheels\" inside the world setting.... not sure what the title is exactly called.\r\n\r\nAlso I have dealth with a good lawyer with corporate matters, I can refer him or speak to him if needed.'),(61,'e026f5d285','','While it would be possible for me to program in binary...*shudder* The increase in time it would take to actually get something done would be enormous. The \"language\" that we program in is translated to binary and at the same time optomized better than any human (minus the few insane programmers out there) could do. In short...between the incredible amount of power in todays computers and the easy of use of current languages and the optomized binary that is created by the assembler when translating to binary...We are much better off writing in something other than binary like C++. \r\n\r\n[quote:e026f5d285]If we could do this, it would keep our software small and allow us to make software code changes on the fly if they sync up with our server. This way as exploits in our quest system come about we can react right away. Similar to the way phpbb is continually updating as people discover flaws in it.[/quote:e026f5d285]\r\n\r\nAs to this, I wouldnt be concerned with having the software to small at this point. I think your talking about its memory footprint when being run? or the total size on harddrive? Either way, I think we can write something that most computers can handle. And our choice of language will not affect this terribly much. \r\n\r\nAs to on the fly changes to the server and keeping them synced. There are many options to this. The first and most difficult and I think best solution would be to write an admin tool to control everything needing to be controled. This would allow us to change all server side variables on the fly. With php, and all web conent for that matter. All code is server side, granted often its cached on the client side, which causes problems later....anyway, here a large portion will be client side...hence why you have 2-3GB games now. Mostly art and other game engine code, often the game code needs to be patched so that the client has changes and you as the server dont have to feed it them every time they need it....anyway I\'m getting off track. \r\n\r\nIn general we wont be changing code on the fly, though we will be changing how things work via server side variables and other controls...in a sense they are part of the code as they are required for the code to work and changing them changes the behavior of the code. And by changing them clients behavior will change aswell. As for stoping exploits...we can write a rule based system into (anything really,but here the quest system) by which we can add \"rules\" to a list that the server enforces...such as: \"Elves can not create quest to kill Hobbits\". \r\n\r\nTo comment on the neural system, you are correct in saying that its used for \'learning\'. Its often used in AI system so they can simulate learning by trying everything and creating links where things work...just like..er..our nerual brain. But to my knowledge this is not what Spore does(well, what it does with respect to what I think you meant)...though I wouldnt doubt they use it somehow in their AI code. The neural system isnt that new in the AI world...its 5-8 years old I think. I wouldnt say Spore is any less digital...as neural is simply very complex digital...As is evident by me typing here...given enough 1\'s and 0\'s Anything can be described.\r\n\r\nWhat I was speaking about with regards to Spore was the use of algorithms instead of hardcoded behaviors, and again alogrithms instead of hand draw(via mouse) 3d models. Example: \"I am a creature...I need to eat...\", \"I can not breath air...I should stay below water\" \"I have an arm with 2 joints...It can move like this. \" \"I have another arm...I can walk on my arms by alternating them blah blah blah\" There would be an extensive list of these that defined an creature...but they would be smaller(in digital space used) and more adaptable than hand hard coded creatures. These may not be good examples nor may they be how Spore is actually written with Algorithms....but I\'m pretty sure I\'m close to it. \r\n\r\nRight...now that I\'ve managed to thoroughly confuse myself...The whole...the more you know/think about something the more you realize you really dont know anything... Back to work....ug...:)'),(62,'8d594c2a5e','','[quote:8d594c2a5e=\"Celebmirtan\"]I\'m pretty good at content design (not programming) but \'adventure\' planning or developing \'wheels turning withing wheels\' within the world setting.... not sure what the title is exactly called.\r\n\r\nAlso I have dealth with a good lawyer with corporate matters, I can refer him or speak to him if needed.[/quote:8d594c2a5e]\r\n\r\nMake sure you try to help Crinan for now...he\'s alone until Tathar gets back from his trip...and I\'m not entirely sure Tathar will help with the project. Though I\'d say he would since he\'s interested in these sorts of things.'),(63,'987fd86583','','Crinan writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:987fd86583]Example: \"I am a creature...I need to eat...\", \"I can not breath air...I should stay below water\" \"I have an arm with 2 joints...It can move like this. \" \"I have another arm...I can walk on my arms by alternating them blah blah blah\" There would be an extensive list of these that defined an creature...[/quote:987fd86583]\r\n\r\nInteresting. It\'s like grammars, where grammatico-semantic features are attached to word-concepts. For example, the verb \'read\' might have the features \'animate-sentient agent,\' \'transitive,\' etc., which would require an agent similarly marked \'animate-sentient.\''),(64,'47ff020689','','*stares at Crinan blankly*\r\n\r\nI hope you understand more of algorthims then I do...because I know next to nothing of them. Keep up the good work though. ;) Study, study. Remember, you\'re not a paid employee yet.'),(65,'3c1bbf4cb8','Quote of the day...week...month...whatever.','If your happiness depends on what somebody else says (or does); I guess you do have a problem. -Richard Bach\r\n\r\nI picked this one because I think it fits our current situation quite well. While we are waiting for rights, there are other things we can be doing. To be honest with you, I think Morthoron\'s idea for a 4th age mmorpg might be more realistic for us at the moment since it\'s least rights intensive. We need capital before we can hope to buy rights to 3rd age material. However, if we can show some investors we can do a 4th age mmorpg right, we may very well get the leverage we need with the Saul Zentz company or CT.'),(66,'0d1aed6183','','Fourth Age = almost no elves.'),(67,'7c2adae951','','I think you\'ve got the idea karakedi. Not that I\'ve totally got it down myself. To give a better example of what an algorithm is with regards to drawing with an algorithm... Instead of having a picture of a circle that is red with thickness 2. We can say. Starting here, take the vector at 0 degrees with radius of x...and rotate around the center marking every point the end of the vector touches and color them red. Do the same for x+1 (thickness is 2). Then we have a red circle.\r\n\r\n[quote:7c2adae951]Interesting. It\'s like grammars, where grammatico-semantic features are attached to word-concepts. For example, the verb \'read\' might have the features \'animate-sentient agent,\' \'transitive,\' etc., which would require an agent similarly marked \'animate-sentient.\'[/quote:7c2adae951]\r\n\r\nAs for this....You lost me :) But it sounds right to me. We use words to help us describe how something should act. But, I think they are actually coding this behavior out. But, you can rest assured that its meaning can be given in plain english.\r\n\r\n*begin writing code and realized no one should care about it yet*\r\n\r\nok:\r\n\r\nif(energy < (MAX_ENERGY/2)) {\r\n lookForFood();\r\n}\r\n\r\nEnglish: If you are hungry, look for food.'),(68,'efaa500209','','I\'m very glad to hear about that Celbmirtan. The ratio of code hours to art/content hours spent during the development of a game is leaned toward the art/content side. Something like 70% of the time is art/content.'),(69,'2c685a450e','','Crinan\r\n Whatever we need to discuss, on this topic either hit me up here on the thread, PM me or if you want other contact info such as AIM or phone or direct email I\'ll gladly send it.\r\n\r\nCeleb'),(70,'aad21a1748','Names','Since this is really a project and not a kinship, could we possibly start on a 1st name basis? I still associate you all as your online handle/name but I think it would be better to also know you all by your real names. So with that said, I am going to signature my posts with my real first name.\r\n\r\n\r\nJohn'),(71,'4a93095146','','*taps her finger on her chin*\r\n\r\nI want to help. I want to be here to lend support where needed, be it adding opinions, discussing ideas, or any other task in which I may be of use.\r\n\r\nHowever, life for me as of late has become stressful and complicated. I\'m not sure how much time I\'ll be able to lend, but I will do my best to... be useful, I suppose. :)\r\n\r\nI can\'t say that I know much about coding a video game. When compared to Seregnin and Karakedi, I\'m certainly not the most skilled in communication. Seeing as this idea has little to do with biology, diagnosis, or scientific research, I\'m a tad lost as to where I could possibly lend my talents.\r\n\r\nI do, however, enjoy dabbling with Photoshop. I realize that I would have to obtain some more advanced programs to help me design for a computer game, but if the need did arise, I\'d be most honored to lend a hand in that department. I like to make things look pretty! :D\r\n\r\nAnyway, use me as you will. I will do my best to... umm... not suck.'),(72,'e1543296ad','','Shaghne...though it\'s pronounced Shane.'),(73,'97ffa60229','','Lori... pronounced \"awesome.\"'),(74,'95f6756b35','','*cries bitterly*\r\n\r\nStupid hobbits.'),(75,'d93fe46148','','Matt'),(76,'3d6e418bac','','Erik or Andreas, but my friends all call me Andy.'),(77,'8e4211e6bd','','4th Age, almost no Elves?\r\nif you mean, no Noldorin Elves, you are right.\r\nthere are, however, still a vast number of Avari left.....and probably a fair number of Sindarin Elves left.'),(78,'2ba915017e','','Madeline'),(79,'74fcd002d0','','Avari and silvans, yes. Probably not too many Sindar, though there may be a few. But one way or another, there probably won\'t be many of the kinds of elves we like to play. The denizens of Imladris for the most part will have realized that their age is past, and it\'s time to leave Endor to Men.\r\n\r\nThat of course doesn\'t mean that we can\'t make up reasons for not having left on the Straight Road yet and RP them. In fact, Isaniel\'s backstory requires that she return to Rhun before she departs West, and she will hope some of her Imladris kin will join her on that mission. But as elves, we will have to work a little harder to create our roles, and we can expect to be seen as increasingly unusual--even eerie--by most of the folk of Middle Earth.'),(80,'5ee4f87b15','','eerie.....I can do that ;)\r\nindeed, it should be a challenge.....and a worthy one at that.'),(81,'3139f488d7','','[quote:3139f488d7=\"karakedi\"]Avari and silvans, yes. Probably not too many Sindar, though there may be a few. But one way or another, there probably won\'t be many of the kinds of elves we like to play. The denizens of Imladris for the most part will have realized that their age is past, and it\'s time to leave Endor to Men.\r\n\r\nThat of course doesn\'t mean that we can\'t make up reasons for not having left on the Straight Road yet and RP them. In fact, Isaniel\'s backstory requires that she return to Rhun before she departs West, and she will hope some of her Imladris kin will join her on that mission. But as elves, we will have to work a little harder to create our roles, and we can expect to be seen as increasingly unusual--even eerie--by most of the folk of Middle Earth.[/quote:3139f488d7]\r\n\r\nI think that means we have to have applications in order to be an elf. However, no applications will be required to be a man, hobbit, or dwarf.'),(82,'4df340c083','How to be a designer','http://www.gamespot.com/features/6129276/index.html?tag=nl.e716\r\n\r\nInteresting read with great insight for aspiring designers (read all of us). We\'re all going to have to learn how to do each other\'s jobs if we\'re going to make this thing work. Teamwork!'),(83,'e6998ebb30','Earane\'s visit to Turbine','http://www.lotrosource.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3553&hl=\r\n\r\nAfter reading Earane\'s two page missive, I was struck by the fact that what she was basically doing was investigating Turbine for us. I\'m convinced of the fact that we are now Turbine\'s competitor. As such, we need to quit helping them out by telling them when they\'ve fucked up...for the most part. You can expect my presence on the meo boards to be scarce from here on out. We need to develop the mindset that Turbine is going to screw things up and we can discuss the items here and what we would do if we were developing the game. But, from here on out, to help them is to hurt us.'),(85,'fed37b7131','','Lessons to learn here: \r\n\r\n1) 10 people giving 1/10th toward a goal is better than 1 person giving 10/10...(All developers bring something unique to the table) \r\n2) 10 People looking over something once is better than 1 person looking over something 10 times...(Iteration)'),(86,'765b6b4f49','','I\'m not sure what in her report made you decide that we are competitors if you didn\'t think so before. We are actually not competing very much, if we are planning a game set in anything other than the end of the Third Age and don\'t intend to cater to the hack-n-slashers, are we?\r\n\r\nFurthermore, I assume that we plan to play LotRO when it comes out, since it will be quite a long time before ours does. After all, the EoI needs to come to life. :) So it isn\'t entirely antithetical to our interests to make their game as playable for us as we can.'),(87,'24b2030310','','I hear what you\'re saying, but if they are truly our competitors, I\'m not in the business of telling them where they\'ve erred. There\'s plenty of others who will do that.'),(88,'60c1ffddf1','Welcome Art Director Lotheani','I\'d like to take this opportunity to introduce our new art director....Lotheani! This former lady of the Meigol also doubles as an art director we will all come to fear. She\'s not afraid to tell you to shove it up your pink pants when you ask her to do something.\r\n\r\nFor instance, Lotheani, can you move the eagle in our forum logo more in the center and put the mountain further to the left?\r\n\r\n*waits for impending fury*'),(89,'97b62202ff','Our Game\'s name...','Since ep, Morth, and Tiberius are dragging their feet on getting here, I\'d like to propose we start talking about joining forces even before they get here. ep is registered here, so eventually they should see it. I think we could call a 4th age mmorpg Arda Online as well couldn\'t we? Thoughts, ideas, concerns?'),(90,'e2d0ecfa94','','How about 9 people? \r\n\r\n*notes the current number of registered users*\r\n\r\nAt least we have a fellowship.'),(91,'a169917932','','Don\'t forget Bill. That makes it 10. :)'),(92,'2e45fdbf14','','Welcome, Loth, to your new, exalted position!'),(93,'7f7237a233','Board Security','For security purposes, I have made only registered users able to read anything on these boards. If a moderator feels the need for even more security, please let me or kara (fellow admin) know and we can increase the security further. Eventually, I intend to establish our own domain name.'),(94,'865a1d07fc','','And the nitpicking begins... ;)'),(95,'6177e02fa0','','I\'ll take a look at it and see what I can codify in the way of plausible powers.'),(96,'16b8830175','Magic','Here\'s an ongoing discussion of the role of magic in Tolkien\'s world, and the kinds of magic that could be available. Parts of the thread are quite repetitious, but there are also some excellent posts that are relevant to our concerns.\r\n\r\n[url]http://forums.lotro.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=39815&page=1&pp=15[/url]'),(97,'4347961e57','Kinship name displays','I\'m not letting ideas from the MEO boards get by us in our quest to design the ultimate game. So without further adue.\r\n\r\n[QUOTE=Bundushathur]Having symbols or badge on armor (like guild tabbards in WoW), is a great idea. It uniforms the kinship so to speak. \r\nHowever to be able to diffrentiate the guilds just by such a symbol can be very hard. You have to concider that many may have to lower the screen resolution and other effects to increase fps/performance. \r\nI think the guild name should be visible somewhere (either next to char name, or in the char info available on select) but with the opt to turn them off. \r\nSo, symbol on armor + visible kinship name + opt for turning off the visible name = everybody happy.[/QUOTE]\r\n\r\nhttp://forums.lotro.turbine.com/showpost.php?p=990454&postcount=7'),(98,'d6674014af','','My conclusion is that IF there is magic in the game, that it is something that should not necessarily be linked to class. Kings and Warriors seem to practice it quite as much as scholars. It should be something that people can pursue if they wish, but that pursuit should be difficult. There are precious few teachers of the arts in Middle Earth at this time, and even less that would be willing to pass along that knowledge.\r\n\r\nMoreover very powerful spells would be something that could only be derived after a long pursuit and magical education. Certainly not something that a beginning player should come out of the gate with, or even be reached at mid levels. They should definitely be an endgame sort of power.\r\n\r\nAnd finally they should require a lot of energy to use, and for the most part be interuptable and counterable.\r\n***************************************\r\nThis is the part that I think is most important.'),(99,'d3cec5fefe','','Welcome, Loth!\r\n\r\n*waits for Seregnin to get a tongue-lashing*'),(100,'37175cef3f','Races and \'magic\'','I also think that there should be different kinds of magic available to the different races. \r\n\r\nDwarves would almost certainly follow their maker, Aule, in a specialization in things of the earth: stone, gems, metals, and perhaps wood and bone when no longer part of a living thing. For them, this would probably be partly inherent subcreational ability, so there would be some skills--of an apparently magical nature to such as the hobbits--that they would develop quite early.\r\n\r\nAs pointed out in many places, elves are subcreators by nature, and they have a special affinity with living things. Thus they might well be able to work with some of the druidic and fine arts and healing, for example, earlier than other races. There would probably be lore-based specializations among the subcategories, so that, for example, Silvan elves might have a special bent for druidry (arts of nature). We know that some elves had a great gift for the subcreation of artifacts, from gems to weapons to musical instruments. At the highest reaches of skill and power, some mind-powers might be achieved. In all cases, however, this would normally not be a matter of spellcasting so much as a form of concentration and activation of the subcreational fea.\r\n\r\nAs always, humans are both versatile and limited. They might have gifts along the lines of dwarves or elves that would remain dormant until awakened by proper teaching, which would be hard to reach and hard to achieve. Or they might be drawn to the necromantic, which would be out of bounds for elves and probably for dwarves. In gameplay terms, this would mean that they might start on the path to activating \'magical\' gifts fairly early, but unless they were corrupted, it would be a long time before they could do more than wortk on building a foundation.\r\n\r\nSpeaking of corruption, do we intend to include playable orcs, goblins, and other minions of evil? If so, PCs would probably mostly be more than foot-soldiers and lance-fodder. Thus, they might also have some affinities for necromancy or other distortions of sub-creation. The more powerful they became, the more they would terrify all but those of very strong fea or will. The developmental path of the corrupt and evil would be similar to that of humans, though it might be accelerated by some item (such as a ring) that also would cost them dearly in, for example, life force.'),(101,'f5cb164a38','','It looks to me as though we may be designing for two games. One is set in the Fourth Age, which Morth et al. have begun planning. The other is our original conception of a virtual First Age world. It would avert much confusion if we could specify which world we are addressing if it would make a difference to the interpretation of our posts. \r\n\r\nFor example, I just finished a post on \'magic\' among the various races. All the while, I was attempting to write in a way that would apply to either case: [b:f5cb164a38]A[/b:f5cb164a38] (First Age) or [b:f5cb164a38]B[/b:f5cb164a38] (Fourth Age). It might be easier if I could simply specify something like this:\r\n\r\n[b:f5cb164a38]A[/b:f5cb164a38]: Noldor have special affinity for subcreation related to X, Y, Z.\r\n[b:f5cb164a38]B[/b:f5cb164a38]: There are vanishingly few Noldor left in Endor, and though they would share some of those gifts, they would probably not be available as PCs, except under stringently controlled circumstances.\r\n\r\nPosts or even paragraphs that apply entirely to one age could be labeled A or B; those that are entirely applicable to both could be AB. (Now all we need is a category O. :wink:)'),(102,'cff89b1916','','If we are thinking about NWN2 as a vehicle, here\'s some technical discussion from the NWN Return of Middle Earth forum:\r\n\r\n[url]http://www.rome-nwn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5226&highlight=[/url]'),(103,'94bbcea553','','An editorial with some useful thoughts about gameplay options:\r\n\r\n[url]http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/175/page/2/from/[/url]'),(104,'d05e8f7136','','Ahh yes... always a hot topic of conversation during the development of a game. Nearly as heated as which names should be allowed, I dare say!\r\n\r\nI\'m all for choice. If there are a number of ways that the kinship affiliation could be displayed, then there are more people that will appreciate and enjoy that feature of the game. Hardcore roleplayers would probably like a simple kinship/guild crest or symbol, whereas others don\'t really enjoy to be kept guessing and would likely appreciate an obvious guild name at the click of a button.\r\n\r\nNeither way is \"wrong\"... it all depends upon the individuals preferences.\r\n\r\nI personally think the kinship crest or symbol is a fantastic idea, though I admit, I\'m not entirely sure what type of resources that would require or how difficult to implement that would be. We\'d certainly have to watch out for the types of symbols that are used, however.\r\n\r\nOnly a few remember my original idea for the EoI symbol... much like the white hand of Saruman, only the hand would be flipping you off. *giggles*\r\n\r\nAhh the thought still makes me laugh (Yes, it was a joke. Quit looking at me like that!).\r\n\r\nPerhaps a possible solution is offering up a certain selection of symbols, colors, animals, etc. that could be placed upon a crest, and a kinship would select and place them to create their individual kinship identity?\r\n\r\nB\'ah... I\'m not sure how feasable that would be...\r\n\r\nIt\'s certainly worth looking into, in my opinion.'),(105,'fff811ef53','','I swear, I\'m going to punch you in your well-used liver so hard that your spleen will disintigrate!\r\n\r\nOh, but thank you. I\'ll do my best.\r\n\r\n*mumbles various curses under her breath while narrowing her eyes at Seregnin*'),(106,'7337a3de14','','To further discussion I\'ll describe the system WoW used, which I thought worked very well.\r\n\r\nFirst, they had both a \"tag\" above your name that showed in text. This was the most important as the game is heavy on PvP and its important to know whose around...\r\n\r\nBut they also had \"Tabards\", which was worn over your chest piece. Granted you had to be fairly close to someone to tell what it was....but well that cant really be helped.\r\n\r\nAnway, the tabard consisted of a paterned border and a center figure. The color of the main background, the border and the figure could be changed. Example: My guild used a blue background with a solid silver border and a silver lion. \r\n\r\nThere are enough combinations that its very unlikly that you\'ll end up with 2 guilds with the same tabard. \r\n\r\nAs far as implementation goes...it seems rather straight forward. Create an image and graft it onto a 3d map of your choice...Tabard, Cloak, Shoulder pad...'),(107,'d46254854e','','*rolls eyes*\r\n\r\nYou people and your numbers...I thought we werent going to worry about the numbers and just make a great game ;)'),(108,'d2cf1af032','','Gilenath \r\n\r\nOk so I did it backwards. What did you expect?'),(109,'0d0aaf1db8','Welcome Patrick','Please meet the newest member of the boards, Patrick...a.k.a. Gilenath. I\'m sure he can bring a biting sense of humor and vast game testing knowledge to the forum. Welcome good sir!\r\n\r\nP.S. I\'m also going to allow username changes for a while so people can change their username to their real name for a while if they want.'),(110,'eb93842a9d','','Right, change mine to Erik the Viking ;)'),(111,'77b1648eea','','Been away - so catching up -\r\n\r\nFew elves would be very cool actually.... from a RP perspective at least.'),(112,'9e3113069e','','Cheli (short for michelle)'),(113,'fc971461ea','','Works for me...'),(114,'059715f594','','Their alpha/beta testers will tell them. I\'d be shocked though if they actually listened to any testers.....'),(115,'bd79519cc5','','Welcome loth :)'),(116,'7b04da2f2c','','Sorry it took me so long to get back here - was away.\r\n\r\nThanks :) I would love to see your stuff and ehar ya!\r\n\r\nHonestly, depending on what way we go with this - we will be needing lots and lots of help so chances are you WILL sing or write something :)'),(117,'644237ecc0','','Yes, though we might want a way to differentiate when we finally get to the pre-Third Age one(s) we\'re hoping to do. Perhaps the full name of this one could be something like Arda Online: Fourth Age.'),(118,'63f65b30c2','EA is in ME gaming now','This comes from another server\'s forum (RoME): \r\n\r\n\r\n[quote:63f65b30c2]It seems that EA has been granted the rights to the books!!! \r\n\r\nThis means that they now can create games based not only on the movies, but also on the content of the books as well!!! \r\n\r\nCheck it out: \r\n\r\n[url]http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-battle-for-middle-earth-2/636341p1.html [/url][/quote:63f65b30c2]'),(119,'08fb8d4398','','Most interesting, perhaps we should be applying to work at EA. Another option is we continue trying to build our own engine here and see how much the rights will cost for us to buy. I could probably very easily send a letter to the Saul Zentz company a.k.a. Tolkien Enterprises using my business name and see what they want for it.'),(120,'de0cd96cbe','','I would agree to that one.\r\nAnd I\'ve already got a concept for an intro song, so to speak....\r\n\"The Dawning Of A New Age\"'),(121,'58d18bd228','','Dûrloth \r\n\r\nok, i followed patrick but yea..'),(122,'2db26aa0c7','What questions should we ask Turbine at LOTROG?','Meghan Rodberg - Patience\r\nJon Hanna - Calandryll\r\nChris Clay - Hakai - Art\r\nRyan Bednar - Tens - Lead World Builder\r\nChris Foster - Nob or Bob - Content Lead\r\nGordon Selley - Lonesled - Game Systems Engineer\r\nKevin Boyle - Producer\r\n\r\nThis is a list of Turbine employees attending LOTROG. My thinking is we can gain some valuable information from them while we\'re there that will help us in our project. Loth can ask art questions to Hakai, I\'ll ask questions to Kevin Boyle about producing etc...\r\n\r\nAre there questions you want us to ask the others for you? For instance, Crinan, anything you want me to ask Gordon Selley or Ryan Bednar?'),(123,'f249f6f711','','Not sure if they\'ll be able to answer any of these questions...not typical NDA stuff...more like trade secrets stuff...but who knows. \r\n\r\nDid they develop their own AI engine or use a 3rd party SDK?\r\n\r\nWhat is the average bandwidth use for a client currently( upload and download)?\r\n\r\nWhen optomizing, do you optomize for the average user or a low end machine...?\r\n\r\nDid they choose to do sound in 2d or 3d? and why.\r\n\r\nWhen designing the world...can you give us a run down of the process you go through for a \'plot\' of ground. NPC\'s, Buildings, mobs, and anything else. \r\n\r\nIs your world seamless? (instances not included) \r\n\r\nWhat language are they programming in? Are there any others you use for other parts of the game?\r\n\r\nThats all for now.'),(124,'8b136f4468','','Michael (a real stretch, I know)\r\n\r\nEdit: changed ID from Mihal to Michael'),(125,'3353cd3a65','','[quote:3353cd3a65=\"karakedi\"]Yes, though we might want a way to differentiate when we finally get to the pre-Third Age one(s) we\'re hoping to do. Perhaps the full name of this one could be something like Arda Online: Fourth Age.[/quote:3353cd3a65]\r\n\r\nAs a working title, this works for me. Might I suggest revisiting the name issue from time to time over the course of development. As we engage with the content in this context, other ideas are bound to occur to us as well.'),(126,'e7e3a29986','','My guess is that this truly is a negotiable item. In other words, EA\'s deal with TE is likely very different than LOTRO\'s. For example, one company may have spent more money than the other, but the other was more willing to award interest in the game itself directly to TE. I think it likely that this project will depend on an arrangment particular to our needs. Not that it woudln\'t hurt to know the details of the arrangements. (In fact, maybe this is something to ask in Providence?)\r\n\r\nI would be curious to know if there are any \'sole distributor\' clauses written into these contracts. Does LoTRO have exclusive MMORPG rights? Is EA\'s deal limited to the one player variety?'),(127,'9232b4b723','','Perhaps you could scope the details of Turbine\'s contract/agreement with Tolkien Enterprises. Any information would be good info here. So, what are the terms of the agreement? Cost? What share, if any, of the product is owned by Tolkien? Royalties?'),(128,'7a1d679520','','Applications would be one way. Another might be akin to what I understand the force slot is in Star Wars. So . . . an involved payer who pays her dues as another race somehow \'earns\' a single elf character on the server. Perhaps a combination of the two? Patrick, You have experience with this system with your Jedi, yes? Thoughts?\r\n\r\n(Should this be a new thread?)'),(129,'fb31edd0ce','','<--Crinan'),(130,'f4abbb0178','','The jedi quest is extremely long and involved, and involves a ton of things just to get \"glowing.\" once glowing - thats when the work begins.....\r\n\r\nits a thought!'),(131,'9802a1a049','','Well done, Kara. \r\n\r\nI like the idea of not it magic at all, at least not in terms of classification. Arcane abilities or the like appeals to me more as the performers of what we would call magic simply . . . well . . . engaged in it like one might swing a sword. Perhaps we should look at them as abilities not understood by those who cannot engage in them: let the hobbits call it magic when an elf runs lightly across a stretched rope; let the elves be amazed by the hobbits innate ability not to be easily corrupted by evil trinkets they may carry. \r\n\r\nCertainly, there should be no flashiness, esp. as the abilities mature. Great magic should be slow, careful, quiet.'),(132,'825229479a','','[quote:825229479a=\"Shaghne\"]http://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2330\r\n\r\nThis is a great discussion of first age powers attainable by the eldar. While I feel most of these are too great for everyday player characters, some would translate, albeit at a lower level.[/quote:825229479a]\r\n\r\nPerhaps we simply need to approach this aspect in a new way. Why not allow the Eldar great powers? For example, I am a player new to the game. I logon to character creation, but, to my dismay, I notice that I cannot create an elf at all, let alone the Noldor I dream of playing. Still, I read a carefully composed explanation of why I cannot play an elf off the bat, and, because I am not a leet brat, I understand the need for population and player control here. So, I check a box which announces my interest in playing an elf. \r\n\r\nPerhaps I receive an application as a result? Perhaps my play is now monitored more closely? Perhaps it is a combination of both? That said, I play my hobbit well and make a meaningful statement that I intend to play an elf as well or better. \r\n\r\nOne day, I logon to find that I have an elf spot open in my character creation with a msg of congratulations. Only a young sylvan, but I can make do. I roam the countryside, adventure, interact with other elves passing to the havens, cross the paths of humans and slay dark creatures who now vie for power in the absence of the ring. I turn out to an excellent player, dedicated to the community and the success of the game. \r\n\r\nIn exchange, I am granted an \'Eldar upgrade\' (has an awful ring to it, doesn\'t it). But, with the advantages, come restrictions. My life as this character is to perform services to the community in the form of granting boons, advice, counsel. I am asked to stay true to a particular location where I can be sought by other player characters. In short, I must RP the eldar to contribute to the world in which it lives. If it ever becomes too much, and I miss my hobbit life, I have the option of making for the Havens myself.'),(133,'c0cb8281b0','','It should be noted that the system that SWG used mainly benifited the powergamers not those who would play jedi the best or most responsibly. I would steer away from a system that allowed unlocks based on how much you played...least ways the way SWG did it where it took forever and a day just to unlock them. Jedi felt like a job, it was not fun...unless you find grinding fun...which I didnt... To become an elf should not detroy the fun of the game.\r\n\r\nMy suggestion, if you want to retrain the number of elves would be a similar unlock system. Some kind of quest (not a crazy long one like SWG), but one that pushed them in their knowledge and wit. They then become and \"elf friend\" and thus unlock their slot. Some kind of lore test to determine their \"worthyness\" could and probably should be included.'),(134,'fd62f1dafb','','Michael writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:fd62f1dafb]I like the idea of not it magic at all, at least not in terms of classification. Arcane abilities or the like appeals to me more as the performers of what we would call magic simply . . . well . . . engaged in it like one might swing a sword. Perhaps we should look at them as abilities not understood by those who cannot engage in them: let the hobbits call it magic when an elf runs lightly across a stretched rope; let the elves be amazed by the hobbits innate ability not to be easily corrupted by evil trinkets they may carry.\r\n\r\nCertainly, there should be no flashiness, esp. as the abilities mature. Great magic should be slow, careful, quiet.[/quote:fd62f1dafb]\r\n\r\nYes, I agree. In fact, here\'s what I just posted on the officials in a thread about magic in LotRO. (Unthor was responding to another poster.)\r\n[quote:fd62f1dafb]\r\nUnthor writes:\r\n\r\n\r\n[quote:fd62f1dafb]The skills you propose could just as easily be placed into mechanics without \'Magic\'. SONGs are not necessisarily magic, although they might be morale boosting. Herb lore is essentially pharmacology 101. AWE is again something that could simply be psychological. CHARM, again is just another name for skills in diplomacy. That\'s not a \'Magic\' system.[/quote:fd62f1dafb]\r\n\r\n\r\nVery high skills in interpersonal dynamics (morale, awe, and diplomacy named here) can be experienced as \'magical\' by those who don\'t possess them. Thus, I could see a development path in \'mind skills\' that would include such domains as empathy, persuasion, influence, fear-inducement, animal communication, and even some mind-healing. While these would not exactly be magic in the D&D sense, they would be unusual and quite powerful. Some of them could even be managed by concentration and/or spellcasting.\r\n\r\nAs for herb-lore, there is a lot that can seem nearly magical for the skilled practitioner, including diagnosis to a very precise level, a far more comprehensive knowledge base of positive and negative effects than normally found in a society like that of Middle Earth, and very accurate choice of the right substance and dose. In fact, one of my characters in a text RP on a kinship forum is a herbalist/druidic loremaster, and she makes use of \'biological warfare\' with spores, bacteria, and poisons that again would seem magical to her companions and enemies.\r\n\r\nSimilar paths could be designed for other skill domains.\r\n\r\nI guess my point is that some sophisticated skill paths could come close enough to magic to satisfy some of the need, and at the same time this scheme could make practice of these arts available to all races. As has been stated many times before, there might be racial affinities that would make it easier for one group to achieve higher levels than others, but all could aspire.[/quote:fd62f1dafb]'),(135,'642802f4b0','','Michael, in principle, I like your progressive scheme to becoming an Elda. However, in practice, it would be quite labor-intensive, as much admin/GM time would have to be devoted to observing and evaluating those who request to play an elf and then move up the scale. I wonder if there might be some shortcuts--the obvious one is to accept people more quickly who are already known from other games or contacts to be knowledgeable and good at RP. Another is the much-maligned lore test. Samples of text RP could also help.\r\n\r\nThese are interesting ideas. Let\'s keep them coming!'),(136,'2dc613fa74','','With reference to playing an elf, Michael asks, \r\n\r\n[quote:2dc613fa74](Should this be a new thread?)[/quote:2dc613fa74]\r\n\r\nThis discussion has already started in the Lore forum. I\'ll move all the related posts to a new thread there.'),(137,'3f7ac86be8','','I love this idea. It rather resembles my post (which I just found out should be moving here so I\'ll stop writing :))'),(138,'977fffefd6','','[quote:977fffefd6=\"karakedi\"]Michael, in principle, I like your progressive scheme to becoming an Elda. However, in practice, it would be quite labor-intensive, as much admin/GM time would have to be devoted to observing and evaluating those who request to play an elf and then move up the scale. I wonder if there might be some shortcuts--the obvious one is to accept people more quickly who are already known from other games or contacts to be knowledgeable and good at RP. Another is the much-maligned lore test. Samples of text RP could also help.\r\n\r\nThese are interesting ideas. Let\'s keep them coming![/quote:977fffefd6]\r\n\r\nYes, it is the principle of the idea that attracts me as well; I am not arguing for a specific process so much as the idea that we can and should rethink the way players might advance in this game. I just don\'t see the traditional methods of advancement accomplishing our aims. \r\n\r\nWith respect to GM time and the like, certainly we wouldn\'t want to create a nightmare for administrating the game; but, a system that is not wholly automated and which is not linked to grinding is important. Matt has good things to say here in the Quote of the Day thread. \r\n\r\nPerhaps we should move all of this to a new thread titled Player Advancement or the like?'),(140,'7e2378c06a','','Done'),(141,'7d2ad2d865','','Lots of gameplay questions to be found here, and they will probably be asked, so let\'s listen hard!\r\n\r\n[url]http://www.lotrosource.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3513&st=0[/url]'),(142,'a94d5f2fa9','','Again, Kara, well done. \r\n\r\nOn a related note, it does seem that Tolkien links the magical to wisdom, does it not? Wisdom of this sort often is gained through unique experiences which give said holders of this experience new insights (which might be perceived as magical powers), such as gazing on the light of the two trees, as well as the more typical vision of wisdom as a direct function of age or a collection of experiences. Might we use a similiar approach in some aspects of advancement with the added intention of increasing the player\'s knowledge of Tolkien lore, knowledge necessary to the use of the skill or skill set. Indeed, the idea of opening new skill sets or directions appeals to me as I would prefer not to see the standard \'quest completed gives you new spell\' routine.'),(143,'e70db735c5','','That\'s an interesting thought. If most of these paths are related to loremastery, then one of the key attributes to develop for a loremaster (or loremaster trainee) would of course be wisdom. I\'d definitely see it as much more than age or completion of set quests. In fact, I rather like the idea of \'examinations\' that call on more than knowledge of Tolkien trivia, but instead require the candidate to demonstrate both knowledge of Arda and its mythology/history and a considerable degree of common sense in problem-solving. \r\n\r\nFrom a practical point of view, this might mean \'essays\' to be evaluated by human beings, but that\'s feasible as long as player numbers remain low, and as long as loremastery/quasi-magic is a very difficult path requiring real lore. Thus \'wisdom\' would be acquired by demonstration of real understanding and good judgment, even if only in hypothetical situations.\r\n\r\nIn fact, if the \'magic\' path were set up to have relatively low impact on combat until very late in the character\'s development, the numbers might remain manageable for evaluation of essays even with quite a substantial player population. I\'d like to see this path be one that supports RP more than combat, though of course it would also make clear contributions to the welfare of, for example, a player\'s kinship.\r\n\r\nSince my mind seems to go toward the druidic arts in gaming, here\'s another suggestion for non-combat loremastery. If there\'s a developed agriculture/mining/crafting system, druidic loremastery might well be directed to improving crop growth rate and yield, or the like, rather than hindering or harming foe. It could also be used for improved herbal foraging, or even cultivation of normally wild herbs. The possibilities are almost endless.'),(144,'83710f13df','','Michael writes in the Magic thread:\r\n\r\n[quote:83710f13df]I would prefer not to see the standard \'quest completed gives you new spell\' routine.[/quote:83710f13df]\r\n\r\nYes indeed. The less mechanical we can make it, the better. I really like the pattern of advancement I see in Ultima Online, which is skills based. By practicing a skill, you get better at it. For magic, the more you use your magic, the more your skill rises, thus making it possible to gain new spells. \r\n\r\nIn the standard version of UO, there are no \'levels\' as such, and no XP. It\'s all skills, including combat skills, which improve by use. There\'s also a complex of skills related to each path. For example, combat is not just weaponcraft. It also includes \'anatomy\' (knowledge of where to strike to do the most damage) and \'tactics\' (timing and such). These two develop along with weaponcraft during combat.\r\n\r\nI would really like to see us develop a sophisticated system of this sort for our \'career\' paths, with all the incredible amount of individual variation they make possible.'),(145,'7908a29d9a','','Indeed, craft and crop and \'magic\' should be one in the same. As the previous posts state, magic is really an individual making something come about in a fashion that another finds incomprehensible, mysterious creation or destruction. One question we can ask ourselves as we develop skill sets along these lines is what one race or individual might know that would contribute to the skill set while seeming new, strange, bewildering to others. These would be magic events. \r\n\r\nWith respect to examinations, while I am in favor of an examination system, I would be wary of any examination process that puts the focus away from the game itself, the composition of an essay, for example. (That is, unless we could RP a testing room complete with pen and quill at which point the sadistic teacher comes out in me.) \r\n\r\nAnother possibility would be peer review. But I am going to move this discussion to its own thread as I seem to be breaking topics here.'),(146,'698689b848','','Another possibility to consider is peer review with respect to certain stages or types of advancement. Ideally, this would lessen the burden on GMs while increasing a sense of community and involvement. (Of course, it might hurt some people\'s feelings, but again it is the community that does that, not the big bad GM.) A player\'s peers (i.e. other players) might, for example, schedule RP events in which individual characters are judged with respect to possibilities for certain types of advancement. These peers then recommend advancement to the GMs/devs who in turn reward the participant. If we choose to have some sort of guild system, and I suspect we will, some methods of advancement should be delegated to them. Further, if one were to have a specific interest, possibly to the exclusion of all others, this character might be required to apply to a secret society or the like which, upon acceptance, can reward players with new skillsets. How and why and when could be totally decided by the guild. (I suggest we choose to set some basic guidelines here to avoid catastrophes.) \r\n\r\nThis might also fit in with the opening up of the quest design to players. Frankly, how cool would it be to have a set of guild specific quests that determine one\'s abilities and standing within the guild? We would eat something like this up over at EoI.'),(147,'5a3470afef','','I\'m liking the ideas we are seeing here.\r\n\r\nThe only thing I fear with a \"vote\" is that...well, you have to make sure that its just not the guild that votes for them....you need enough votes to reresent the community. Probably the best way would be to limit how many a given guild could have... \r\n\r\n\"Secret society\"...one that is invite only of a type... of course lead by a community rep.... But has a specific skill set... Oh this could get interesting.'),(148,'178ead6645','','I agree.....keep brainstorming, it\'s beginning to look very good indeed....'),(149,'3e2ed21125','Style','Every aspect of this game is going to have a style, some unique, others borrowed from other games. It will help the design process, that is, coming up with the specifics of each subsystem and how they interact, if we know what style we should be designing for. \r\n\r\nI would like to get input on the different styles you have in mind...feel free to elaborate extensively.\r\n\r\nExample: Combat, I would like to see combat being both \"twitchy\" and \"strategic\". Perhaps weapon type affects whether it is a twitchy weapon that takes the skill of a mouse to weild effectively. Perhaps we could combine them... Each weapon can be controled through the tritch and through a simpler and more strategic method. BUT, those that master both are more effective. I think that this would make combat much more intense. While we havnt discused pvp, I would imagine we wouldnt include it due to this being a RP game, I think it would be ok to have some more powerfull than the other. Having 2 types of skills, one that you advance yourself and one that you advance in game sounds appealing to me.'),(150,'e09dffb683','','It has been my experience elsewhere that some of the best roleplayers are not necessarily well known in the community at large. They may, for example, play (appropriately) in an enclave, as would normally be the case for elves, who interact relatively little with other races, or hobbits, who seldom travel.\r\n\r\nI therefore suggest that the player nomination route be only one alternative. Others might include the quality of the player\'s application, the examination process I described above, guild officer positions (guild-internal), specialized and secret societies, and selection by observing GMs/Admins, and others we\'ll doubtless think up.'),(151,'52f93e3521','','I would like to add that back in the days of UO, one could dye clothing, decorate a home and really get some interesting customization. Having a unique look, based upon some crafts and non combat skills like tailoring and leatherworking would be a nice additive to character individuality.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(152,'601fa744b8','','Combat in this game should not be the center of design as all the other MMO\'s are. Combat is a key element, but should take a back seat to immersion, lore and world accuracy. I think if the design leans to much towards combat, all the elements that must be addressed will begin to erode other elements that are so necessary to set this game apart.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(153,'6e44539433','','You misunderstand me. I\'m not saying that combat should be the largest piece of the pie or that we should spend our days thinking about how best to achieve the next greatest thing in combat in an mmo.\r\n\r\nI was explaining a style of combat that I thought would be new and fun as an example of what I was expecting others to put forth. Art, magic, crafting, healing, scouting, armor...the list goes on. These all need to be defined before we move to the next step. It would not be wise to define half the game and then begin to build it...because addition or changes later greatly increase the man hours it takes to get something done. \r\n\r\nIt sounds like immersion, lore, and world accuracy are you highest priorities. I could hardly agree more with the fact that they are incredibly important. But, we need to define what will cause immersion to be at its highest, what styles that will be truest to the lore, and also what styles best represent the world to attain the accuracy we desire.\r\n\r\nTo continue on the note of combat, in your mind, what does combat do/look like when it is attempting to maximize immersion, lore, and world accuracy? \r\n\r\nWhat would you focus on and what would it be like for you to maximze immersion, lore, and world accuracy?\r\n\r\nI dont ask any of these questions to prove any points only to get answers...the more we answer now...the more likely it is we will get some things right :)'),(154,'c6db3010ea','','Matt,\r\n It early yet in my day, but I wanted to read your post, I shall reply in detail a bit later...\r\n\r\nJohn'),(155,'b9966c18ca','','Scouting: \r\n\r\nI always visualise this as a group of skills, being: tracking, stealth (the ability to remain unseen/hidden), senses (hearing/vision/smell)\r\n\r\nI never came upon a game that could really give you the feeling you were actually scouting ahead / actually following a trace.\r\n\r\nAn example for a tracking quest that could apply this:\r\n\r\nSay a bear has gone berzerk, slaying people at random. Your job is to find it, and restore balance to nature (killing the bear). You are send to the place where he was last spotted. \r\nThen some sort of tracking comes into play. You follow \"tracks\" (pieces of blood, cloth, bear-tracks), get too a mountain ridge -> caves. -> rocky bottom, no more tracks.\r\nSo tracking instead of: move to A, find object a -> move to B, find object b, etc. (It will still be the same thing, but more covered up.)\r\n\r\nThen comes the senses. You smell a foul stench coming from one particular cave -> rotting corpses / leftover meat -> you found the bear\'s cave.\r\n\r\nAnother example:\r\n\r\nYou are told an army is marching towards a friendly city, and you are to scout them, gain info about who they are, numbers, etc.\r\nstealth will protect you from being seen.\r\nvisibility will give you the ability to know who / what is coming (humans / dunedain ; Orcs / Uruk-hai ; etc.) and an estimate of the number of attackers.\r\n\r\n\r\nI hope that made some sense. I\'m not quite sure how possible this would be though. It would sure make the world more immersive for me. If something is unclear / plain stupid, please let me know!'),(156,'334a4dda7e','','Excellent. Everyone else out there! Please add whatever you can think of.'),(157,'161ac5185f','','On the tracking note:\r\n\r\nPerhaps there will be low levels of magic, or good skill. Perhaps in this tracking example, one that possesses the skill, would see a lighlty illuminated trail of foot prints or something to follow. The skill would work passively and it improves when you are kneeling or moving slow so the \'glow\' or however one can distinguish tracks as graphics in game would be able to be followed. If the \'tracker\' or scout begins to run, this power dissipates and you lose the trail. People without tracking won\'t have the ability to see this so this would add a unique element and necessity for a hunter/tracker/ranger. \r\n\r\nRemeber when Aragorn was rummaging around on the ground finding clues about what happened to Merry and Pip, well that type of behavior is what I would like to see modelled. Maybe another ability would be to put your ear to the ground and hear distant travellers, sort of like your ear to the railroad tracks.\r\n\r\nOne thing I didn\'t like about WoW was the even if you didn\'t have Herbalism, you would see important plants and herbs laying around but in WoW you just could not \'pick\' them without the skill. In this game, I think it would be pretty cool to make skills work passively, where only the trained herbalist can distinguish weeds/grass from real herbs. \r\n\r\nJohn'),(158,'bb0b38c394','','I like the working title of Arda Online, but I would not disclose that publicly until we are 110% sure that name fits our project, and that we have permission. Perhaps we can call it Project Arda until or something along that until we are sure we are in the good graces of CT.\r\n\r\n\r\nJohn'),(159,'c65cdd5062','','I have purchased a lot of product from a company called I.C.E. (Iron Crown Enterprises). They had RPG game rights to LOTR for many many years. I know there was a bitter falling out with TE and it made them go belly up when it was all said and done. I may be able to find a contact name of the person(s) they dealt with when striking the deal with T.E. Would that be something you would like to look at Shaghne?\r\n\r\n\r\nJohn'),(160,'697c7abeff','','Exactly what I was thinking, as your avatar has learned to track, he can see the signs. So we must decide the best way to portray these to a user. I like the idea of illuminated objects that only you see. For the visual, that\'ll work. Any idea on how to portray smells visually? Sounds we can obviously do with sound.'),(161,'1f25039ef3','','[quote:1f25039ef3=\"Matt\"]Exactly what I was thinking, as your avatar has learned to track, he can see the signs. So we must decide the best way to portray these to a user. I like the idea of illuminated objects that only you see. For the visual, that\'ll work. Any idea on how to portray smells visually? Sounds we can obviously do with sound.[/quote:1f25039ef3]\r\n\r\n\r\nFor the visualisation of smell I was thinking of an action triggered event caused by \"smoke / a cloud\" spreading the stench. (like in cigarette-fume, or steam coming from a cooked meal). \r\nAction of your character would be *hmm, something smells in here, i wonder what it is* or something similar. \r\n\r\nThe same could happen when your character smells something good (say from flowers / tasty meals / ...)'),(162,'202b5c2f3e','','ICE stands for Iron Crown Enterprises. They\'re the makers of the MERP (Middle Earth Roleplaying) modules, which have an iffy connection with Tolkien lore. Some of their material is good, but some of their modules are more on base than others; some get into what we might call apocrypha.'),(163,'8a3beffc2c','','Celebmirtan writes:\r\n[quote:8a3beffc2c]\r\nOne thing I didn\'t like about WoW was the even if you didn\'t have Herbalism, you would see important plants and herbs laying around but in WoW you just could not \'pick\' them without the skill. In this game, I think it would be pretty cool to make skills work passively, where only the trained herbalist can distinguish weeds/grass from real herbs. [/quote:8a3beffc2c]\r\n\r\n\r\nYes, this is very close to the kinds of sub-magic abilities I\'ve been thinking about. Skills of this sort are likely to look kind of magic to the untrained, but they\'re really very much the product of knowledge, training, and experience, and they get better with more of same.\r\n\r\nDefinitely on track!\r\n\r\nCross-reference: [url]http://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=29[/url]'),(164,'5adf56ac3d','','Cross-reference to a related discussion:\r\n[url]\r\nhttp://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=30[/url]'),(165,'4fc2d91682','','Brainstorming here: excuse the tangential approach. \r\n\r\nAlong these same lines, the best RPers may come from a number of unexpected quarters, including the noob to the Tolkien experience. It is really something we have not hitherto discussed, the player who is interested but who does not share in the knowledge base of, say, ourselves and EoI companions. For EoI, this I think makes sense: we want our members to have a working knowledge of Tolkien\'s works. \r\n\r\nBut for Project Arda (or whatever we have decided on here), it occurs to me that we will be some players\' very first experience with Tokien. I think we should welcome these players as they are a challenge by which we can create a more thorough and complete character-driven experience. I am not referring to the leet tribes of powergamers anxious to be that much spiritually closer to Viggo and the gang. I think it probable that we will also have players with a lot of potential but with little to no experience with Tolkien\'s world. \r\n\r\nI would like to propose thinking of this audience as we integrate instruction in lore into the player advancement system. How much Frodo learned from Gandalf as they interacted and adventured! And how exciting for all players to step fresh into the created world only to learn of it from its denizens even if we, in RL, know of it already; it is the character that players will be RPing. Indeed, it should be (as already pointed out in other ways) the application of these lessons, presuming the player is paying careful attention, that allows for certain kinds of advancement. \r\n\r\nFor example, a tricky lore based quest may end in no immediate prize. Weeks or months later (maybe after the completion of a number of these seemingly fruitless quests), the character experiences dreams of a tower in the mountains or the like. Weeks later, the character witnesses the tower and approaches it only to be invited to petition for a secret society and whatever that process might entail. \r\n\r\nThere of course is a lot of invention here, and much of it is not lore perfect, and perhaps dismissible as a result. But the core point here is that a new player can learn of the Tolkien universe and that this learning process becomes a facet of how characters might advance while becoming enmeshed in the reflection of the Tolkien world we create.'),(166,'ea58e365a6','Organic Quest Design','I want to use this occasion to voice a complaint I have about the few MMORPGs I have played: every character seems to have to go through the same quests for the same leet armor and weapon resulting in the ever lovely request: need help with Quest X or how do I accomplish Quest Y. Perhaps, some of this is inevitable, but it makes for a more predictable and less enmeshing experience.\r\n\r\nSo, I pose the question, assuming others find this desirable, how might we develop a world which is based in lore but which is also based in the character discovering and creating her own adventures which separate her experience from even her closest in-game friends? \r\n\r\nI think players contributing quests, especially guild or society-specific quests, is one solution. Other ideas on how to create a more organic and self-determinate experience?'),(167,'5627a01824','','Player and guild generated quests are definitely one option. Another is for the system to generate quests based on certain classes of player attribute and skill combinations. Thus, for example, the tracker discussed elsewhere might get quests related to finding a spy and reporting back, whereas the herbalist might have the opportunity to develop a new recipe to heal someone who matters to the world, and so on. A tracker-herbalist might get both quest sets, but would not get the more complex ones as fast if they were developing a character on two paths and thus achieving levels of skill more slowly. We could make this kind of approach as complicated or as simple as we want--and perhaps simple at first and growing more complex as the game develops.'),(168,'36f11a0542','','[quote:36f11a0542=\"Matt\"]Exactly what I was thinking, as your avatar has learned to track, he can see the signs. So we must decide the best way to portray these to a user. I like the idea of illuminated objects that only you see. For the visual, that\'ll work. Any idea on how to portray smells visually? Sounds we can obviously do with sound.[/quote:36f11a0542]\r\n\r\nI was thinking the same could go for crafters / miners. \r\n\r\n-in WoW, you would also see mining spots everywhere, even though you couldn\'t mine them.\r\n\r\n-when you find scraps of metal : crafters could say: this is that metal, i can use it to create X, while non-crafters would just see a piece of junk and leave it there (or take it to a friend who is a crafter).'),(169,'5c423b2a0f','','I feel that unless we have a large pool of quests to choose from or that we enforce a rule that says no asking for help in such a blatant way....that people will always ask for help. Thought if we design quests that can only be completed solo and have in a semi random fasion...getting help or \"powerleveling\" may be nearly impossible.'),(170,'fb16a2ec89','','We could also make the maximum number in character-level difference in a team small, say 1-2 levels at max. This will prevent real powerlevelling as well.\r\n\r\nAs for giving quests in semi-random fashion:\r\n\r\nWe can only come up with so much quests. If you start of with (WoW-like structure)\r\n\r\na) rase-based quests (say elf)\r\nb) class-based quests (say ranger/scout)\r\nc) profession-based quests (everyone can choose X main professions, say 1-2)\r\n\r\nIf we have to come up with quests for every profession / class / race and then some more to give everyone random quests, we\'ll be sitting here making quests untill 2020.. Or well, that\'s what i think any way.'),(171,'99bc73cf9b','','[quote:99bc73cf9b=\"Jan\"]If we have to come up with quests for every profession / class / race and then some more to give everyone random quests, we\'ll be sitting here making quests untill 2020.. Or well, that\'s what i think any way.[/quote:99bc73cf9b]\r\n\r\nI agree. But perhaps there are alternative approaches. Here\'s one that, at least initially, strikes my fancy:\r\n\r\nPlayers create and declare their own quests based on their own stories. Why couldn\'t we create a quest creation template in which a player gives identity and story to existing baddies. Rewards could be based on difficulty and complexity, something that could be determined rather easily. I don\'t think this should take the place of major quests, but I think it could really enhance the overall experience by giving meaning and a richness to what otherwise becomes mindless hunting. Groups could share in these designed quests. \r\n\r\nFor example, a group goes into the wild after declaring a mini quest in which they are hunting an orc scouting party. The creator of the quest, Player A, identifies that they are to locate a group of orcs, or a certain number, or the like. Perhaps she also declares difficulty. And this group is off on an adventure that can be RPed in context. Along the way, they come across an herbalist and healer who offers assistance. On joining the group, she becomes apprised of the quest. Great Rp opportunities. Player generated formulas therefore contribute to the elimination of meaningless grind. Great adventure formulas may even be posted for others to use offsite. \r\n\r\nThoughts?'),(172,'fe15677920','','*has a large number of MERP 2nd Edition books*\r\nI agree with Madeline, some of them are exceptional, but some of them are very iffy....\r\nI do love the maps that came with them the most.\r\n\r\nI do like the Northern Waste book and the Hands of the Healer book.\r\nand some of the others aren\'t bad ones either.\r\n\r\nBut yes, there should probably be a contact name in one of them.'),(173,'f68d629189','','Great ideas, for sure....\r\nkeep \'em coming, I enjoy the reading of them very much at the moment.'),(174,'139c0540cc','','[quote:139c0540cc=\"Andy\"]Great ideas, for sure....\r\nkeep \'em coming, I enjoy the reading of them very much at the moment.[/quote:139c0540cc]\r\n\r\nHow about posting one yourself? :D ;)'),(175,'58844bd860','','I certainly like that approach.....\r\nalso, class or skill specific quests is a great idea, which is what I loved about Baldur\'s Gate2(I know, slightly different game).....you could all get the same basic quests, but dependant on your character\'s class, you got so called \"stronghold\" quests, which only the first one of a series of quests could be completed by all, but the outcome would be different.'),(176,'bc50fc504a','','Well, I shall have to think up something then.....\r\non the matter of style, I mean.'),(177,'3d0c6f6f96','','[quote:3d0c6f6f96=\"Celebmirtan\"]I have purchased a lot of product from a company called I.C.E. (Iron Crown Enterprises). They had RPG game rights to LOTR for many many years. I know there was a bitter falling out with TE and it made them go belly up when it was all said and done. I may be able to find a contact name of the person(s) they dealt with when striking the deal with T.E. Would that be something you would like to look at Shaghne?\r\n\r\n\r\nJohn[/quote:3d0c6f6f96]\r\n\r\nYes, that would be helpful John. The name and contact information (writing address or email) would be useful if I want to query him as to how he initiated the dialgoue between them and what was the breakdown, and also what were the terms of their contract. If you know him personally, any information that you can obtain would be helpful as well.'),(178,'b9d2c73a49','','I wonder if it would be possible to choose a quest based on conversation with an NPC and the choices/information that would be shared in such a situation. I suppose that could help sort folks out by their skills and perhaps their alignment if they so choose.\r\n\r\nA series of questions and responses could lead the player to an appropriate quest, whereas if they were to approach the same NPC later and answer in a slightly different manner, the quest could be entirely different.\r\n\r\nIt could require a rather substantial number of different quests and some complex dialogue to lead the player in the right direction, but if it were done well, it could be very interesting.\r\n\r\nJust an idea...'),(179,'8dd9d5b1ab','','[quote:8dd9d5b1ab=\"Lori\"]I wonder if it would be possible to choose a quest based on conversation with an NPC and the choices/information that would be shared in such a situation. I suppose that could help sort folks out by their skills and perhaps their alignment if they so choose.\r\n\r\nA series of questions and responses could lead the player to an appropriate quest, whereas if they were to approach the same NPC later and answer in a slightly different manner, the quest could be entirely different.\r\n\r\nIt could require a rather substantial number of different quests and some complex dialogue to lead the player in the right direction, but if it were done well, it could be very interesting.\r\n\r\nJust an idea...[/quote:8dd9d5b1ab]\r\n\r\nI love the idea, It has been done in a few games already, so yes, it\'s definately possible. I\'m thinking of Morrowind, where you had to make moral choices about telling the truth or not etc, and Baldurs Gate (2), where you had several different ways of answering/asking questions etc.\r\n\r\nAlignment can certainly be measured in the way you respond to NPC\'s, and could play a role in deciding which quest you get (virtuous / neutral / evil)\r\nFor instance, i would love to see some fool-quests as well. Say you\'re a virtuous character, and talking to an evil-aligned NPC. Wouldn\'t it be great that, if you\'re talking all goodie to this guy, he would send you to some dangerous place where you can a) die or b) run for your life.\r\nBut if you would be more friendly to him (as in not boasting about you being good / him/her being evil etc.) he could give you a real quest (and a good one)'),(180,'d59602e636','Re: Style','[quote:d59602e636=\"Matt\"]\r\n\r\nI would like to get input on the different styles you have in mind...feel free to elaborate extensively.\r\n\r\nExample: Combat, I would like to see combat being both \"twitchy\" and \"strategic\". Perhaps weapon type affects whether it is a twitchy weapon that takes the skill of a mouse to weild effectively. Perhaps we could combine them... Each weapon can be controled through the tritch and through a simpler and more strategic method. BUT, those that master both are more effective. I think that this would make combat much more intense. While we havnt discused pvp, I would imagine we wouldnt include it due to this being a RP game, I think it would be ok to have some more powerfull than the other. Having 2 types of skills, one that you advance yourself and one that you advance in game sounds appealing to me.[/quote:d59602e636]\r\n\r\nI like the idea of both twitchy and strategic, but I would caution that we don\'t make skill with a mouse a large advantage over those who don\'t possess such abilities. You should be able to operate the attack command easily with a click of the mouse and still be effective. \r\n\r\nTo expand on Jan\'s idea of tracking, I\'d love to see a more detailed (twitchy) approach to using a bow. For example, if you are stalking an orc in the woods, you should be able to sight in better (without use of reticules or anything else gaudy) on your victim. Obviously, you wouldn\'t be able to use this skill if time were of the essence.\r\n\r\nI agree, no pvp, but I must admit to liking the idea of allowing certain designated areas for kinship wars etc...pvp. It seems easy enough to avoid these areas if you don\'t want to fight. Sections of Angmar would be conducive to such an area...but not the main fortress itself.'),(181,'7d76804149','','I think the best system for quests is going to involve all of these ideas. The ability to create your own quests is a very nice feature and one that I hope wouldnt\' be too resource intensive. It has the nice feature of allowing us to blame the gamer if they get bored. However, there are still times when I don\'t want to think and I just want to go up to Gandoolf for example and have him tell me what to do.'),(182,'0e89e69580','','I\'ll be boring and mention the basic Master, apprentice relationship that has served mankind for millenia. Perhaps in order to become an extremely good swordmaker, you would have to pass on your abilities to at least one apprentice and possibly more to become really good. This would encourage player interaction. It should still be possible to become a decent crafter on your own however.'),(183,'30bf53ba8a','Seregnin\'s grandiose state of the game address...','Good discussions are under way, and I think we have the foundation pieces for our project in place. We could really use ep\'s programming skills and Morth and Tiberius to join in as well, but while we are waiting for them we can still be useful.\r\n\r\nFor my part, I think I need help in deciding where to focus our next step efforts. Afterall, all this discussion is fruitless if we don\'t do something with it. Shall I write CT first, or write the Saul Zentz company first? I don\'t see writing CT as very hopeful, but the letter is already pretty much written so shall we try now?'),(184,'4c726834b9','','SWG had something similar. Thought I didnt really think it worked to much. You had to train 620 points worth of apprentiship before you got master...what sense does it make to train if you arnt yet a master...ok it makes some sense but not as much as if you make master....Instead I propose you can only learn master from another master...I think you will still get the community as well as having one \"head\" crafter who was master first and thus the oldest. I guess the problem with the SWG system was...you had to FIND people to train. Which became increasingly annoying the more times you realized you couldnt train because you hadnt trained enough guys. This lead to \"farming\" point by training a friend over and over a low level skill....\r\n\r\nAnyway, I think its worth thinking about having the master do the training...perhaps as devs we have to choose the first one...or more likely, one of us will be the first one....'),(185,'d2b4247e7f','','How about writing both?\r\nI cannot forsee what CT\'s reply would be, but I still think it would be a good idea to raise his awareness of the True Fans Desire.'),(186,'693b386826','','Now, I know this is probably not along the lines of style, but I\'ve been thinking about \"plotlines\" today.\r\n\r\nHas anyone else had any thoughts as to how to do this?\r\nFor me, it would be the best if each player-race had it\'s own plotline....\r\nfor instance, if you are a Hobbit, maybe the plot would be to discover the Hobbit ancestry and beginnings and to make a record of the early days?'),(187,'cbe153ecb8','','Everything has a \"style\" :) plots are no different to me. As the story will have to be written/designed. Please expound on what a story should contain and how it should flow.'),(188,'aa96982886','','Generally speaking - why don\'t we name some separate aspects of the game that would need to be discussed for this?\r\n\r\nCombat is one.\r\n\r\nMagic another.\r\n\r\nBut those are very large categories.\r\n\r\nI have always played a healer so I can comment extensively on that, in combat and out of combat, but because that either involves \"herblore\" or \"magic\" it crosses over........\r\n\r\nUnless you want any inate abilities.......\r\n\r\n\r\nPvP - designated areas are a GO! Nothing more fun when people get higher level than to go out and kill each other to blow off an evening :)'),(189,'9faa317199','','One of the best ideas I ahve seen in any game is the use of crafting and/or decorating as in SWG. I really really think this appeals to a separate class.\r\n\r\nWhat about the idea of tabards being designed and made by in game crafters????\r\n\r\nJust a thought........'),(190,'0ed8b36f26','','It might be boring, but it also fosters community and is pretty realisitic to have the Master / Apprentice thing going. And it is consistent to an extent with the book somewhat - at least with the age of men, correct?\r\n\r\n**edited cause spelling > me **'),(191,'be0e59ffba','','PvP in arenas designated for the purpose, and by mutual consent, OK. Guild conflicts with DM supervision, also OK.\r\n\r\n I would object very strongly to PvP otherwise; it\'s an invitation to PKing.'),(192,'230b34ed3e','','The Sims Online (don\'t sneer--they have some potentially useful things) has an interesting approach to teaching. One can qualify to be a teacher by achieving a minimum level of skill in two attributes (logic=INT and charisma). Thereafter, the player can teach any of the five attributes to another player if there is a difference of at least one level. But the closer the levels come to equality, the smaller the increment in skill for each teaching session. Thus, if a teacher with \'creativity\' of 10 were to teach a beginner, the increment for each session would be 7 or 8 (out of 100 to reach the next level). By the time the learner reached level 8, the increment would be only 1. Even at that low a rate of increase, it\'s still faster than grinding out skill the usual way.\r\n\r\nEach teaching session drains resources (energy and \'fun\') substantially, so after 6 or 7 such sessions, the teacher and student must restore them. The process is thus demanding but still worthwhile.\r\n\r\nPlayers who can teach are in business for themselves and can charge a fair amount for their services.\r\n\r\nSomething along these lines might be applicable to our schemes of master-journeyman-apprentice. A master could teach anyone. A journeyman could teach basics to an apprentice.\r\n\r\nThis kind of thing adds nice interactions among PCs.'),(193,'735b55e24a','','Yes, the M/A roles is something we should really explore. I am convinced that it is going to be a combination of methods for advancement that will really make this world come to life. I would like to see us achieve a balance of methods, each of which with its own perk(s), as choice is what makes for a dynamic world.'),(194,'c1ad6f6730','Combat Concepts & Ideas','I thought it would be better to separate these topics into specific threads.\r\nI am going to take the liberty of making a few separate threads to stay on track. Please use this thread for combat related design ideas.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(195,'d97b1ebb84','Skill Concepts & Ideas','Specific for skill design ideas.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(197,'072a08767a','PvP Ideas','To pvp or not to pvp!...'),(199,'4909a75eef','','I have deleted the magic thread in this forum, since there\'s already an active magic thread in the Lore and Language forum.\r\n\r\nhttp://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=29'),(200,'f8b49a3c63','','I would write CT.\r\n\r\nI\'m going to look now to see if you\'ve posted the letter here.\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(201,'ff87ecd8e7','','I\'m just curious...\r\n\r\nSo many people liked MEO...is anyone interested in pursuing gaining access to that name from whomever holds it? I can\'t imagine obtaining it\'s use would be a big deal, but others here know better...it just seems that so many people liked MEO....and there is already an \"AO\" (Anarchy Online).\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(202,'2ccf786ccc','','Please forgive me if I say it\'s premature. We can use some tighter planning (brainstorming is necessary, of course, and we aren\'t finished with it yet) and more reason why those holding the rights should let us make use of the material. So far, it remains at \"We\'re enthusiastic and quite knowledgeable, and we think we can create an immersive virtual world that will stay true to Tolkien\'s vision.\"\r\n\r\nHow can they verify any of that? One piece of research that could be done at LOTROG is to see if we can find out more about what kinds of documentation are normally used in the gaming world to get access to rights. By this, I mean not only legal stuff, of which I know next to nothing, but also a game prospectus (something analogous to the kind of thing one has to turn in with a proposal to a publisher giving a lot of information about proposed book contents or to a grant-giver providing research plans in some detail, background of the project, and qualifications of the personnel).\r\n\r\nWe need to be able to show that we have done our homework and can be counted on to continue to do so.'),(203,'f0d780a948','','Good point LoA. I would be interested to see what lengths we would have to go through to get permission to said name.'),(204,'576a86bbcd','','/nod'),(205,'df1b84aaa5','','PvP within a designated area, by mutual consent.\r\n\r\nMeaning - say within a battlefield, that would amke sense especially if it was in a specific area (like by Mordor or something). \r\n\r\nEither guilds or inidividuals can choose to fight (or not). \r\n\r\nTo prevent griefing etc. you are knocked unconscious lets say, and you have to re-enter the duel. Three knocks and you are considered dead... unless a fellow player \"restores\" your life energy or something somehow. \r\n\r\nOh the possibilities.\r\n\r\nPersonally, I really enjoy PvP when its done right... placing restrictions on it inc ertain ways would only enhance it imo, not detract.\r\n\r\nIts a thought and its fun.\r\n\r\nBesides, wouldn\'t even the elves have trained each other and had training exercises?'),(206,'aad1802f03','','I\'ve always liked MEO, but I figured Turbine had that name trademarked. Now that they\'re not using the name, I\'m not sure how long that trademark lasts for. If this game will be marketed mainly online, it would be wise to ensure the website name is available as well. I\'ll check now.'),(207,'bc1d8f0326','','http://www.checkdomain.com/cgi-bin/checkdomain.pl?domain=meo.com\r\n\r\nI spoke to Sam Benson at the Saul Zentz company regarding the renewal of the website meo.com and they are by no means interested in selling the rights to the name when it expires in 2006. However, I did ask him if they might have interest in creating a game more based on lore and the world of middle earth and he seemed to be interested. He recommended that we submit a business proposal in writing to Tolkien entereprises and said licensing requests information can be found at http://www.tolkien-ent.com/licensing.html\r\n\r\nWho\'s ready for a lot of work?\r\n\r\nP.S. Arda.com and ardaonline.com are both already registered though ardaonline.com is for sale.'),(208,'e34462dcf8','','I think we can be working on the letter to CT first since it will be more informal and will not require a business plan as Tolkien Enterprises will. Obviously the first letter we created to him still needs work...maybe I\'ll try revising it during the plane flight out for LOTROG.'),(209,'dbf23f6aea','','Doing away with pvp all together might be simpler resourcewise, but I think that might also alienate a large portion of our audience. Granted, hardcore pvp\'ers we dont\' want anyway, but I consider myself an rp\'er and think the opportunity to fight somewhere is essential and leads to more fun and more satisified customers. Think of the rivalary between the Soul Assasins and the EoI for example. Competition makes both groups better.'),(210,'9919dca192','','[quote:9919dca192=\"Andy\"]Now, I know this is probably not along the lines of style, but I\'ve been thinking about \"plotlines\" today.\r\n\r\nHas anyone else had any thoughts as to how to do this?\r\nFor me, it would be the best if each player-race had it\'s own plotline....\r\nfor instance, if you are a Hobbit, maybe the plot would be to discover the Hobbit ancestry and beginnings and to make a record of the early days?[/quote:9919dca192]\r\n\r\nThis is in essence what Turbine is doing. Every man starts in the same chetwood town doing the same quest. It\'s not a bad idea, but I think your concept might be too limiting. Instead of us telling our customers what their purpose is in the game, I prefer to leave it open-ended and allow the customer to create their own focus. Some will be interested in genealogy, but perhaps others will like adventuring and partying more. We should give them the freedom to choose what to focus on.'),(211,'81d9288f2e','','[quote:81d9288f2e=\"Shaghne\"]\r\nThis is in essence what Turbine is doing. Every man starts in the same chetwood town doing the same quest. It\'s not a bad idea, but I think your concept might be too limiting. Instead of us telling our customers what their purpose is in the game, I prefer to leave it open-ended and allow the customer to create their own focus. Some will be interested in genealogy, but perhaps others will like adventuring and partying more. We should give them the freedom to choose what to focus on.[/quote:81d9288f2e]\r\n\r\nI\'ld say a game like Morrowind sets the tone for me (concerning where you want to go with your character. You could basically do everything, explore, do quests, join guilds, hunt for special creatures, just do nothing and enjoy the landscape, etc. while still not participating in the main story) and that pretty much is what you described. (Do i need to add that I love morrowind? :D)\r\n\r\nedit: Of course, we could use the idea Andy proposed as a large extended quest for hobbits (one that could for example give you the title \"Historian\" or whatever you would call that), but also have it available for other races that might be interested in this quest.\r\nSay we have 4 geneaologies (hobbits/dwarfs/humans/elves). If you could master the 4 of them (long work, difficult, ...) you would be called master Historian. With Apprentice and Journeyman inbetween for example.\r\nFor hobbits you\'ld go to hobbiton (mayor\'s office - some clerk), for elves to rivendells library, for dwarves to ..., for humans to ...'),(212,'a3771b7db9','','Well, putting together a business proposal would certainly force us to make some decisions. Might I suggest locating/posting some sample proposals? I for one have not written a business proposal and would be curious to see what formats are standard, what is typically included and the like. (This is approach I have used for grant proposals and the like, and it has served me well in the past.) Deciding on a tentative approach to format might also allow us to break up the work, so to speak. \r\n\r\nInput from those more experienced with this process? \r\n\r\nDepending on the level of detail required for such a proposal, we may have a lot of work to do yet ebfore this can occur.'),(213,'ab96a0dc2d','','I think PVP draws in the people who we don\'t want playing this game. People love the competitive aspects of PvP, they are the power gamers the efficiency players who level the fastest, prey upon the casual gamer, know all the loopholes and exploit every advantage to \'win\'. \r\n\r\nArda isn\'t about winning is it? Its about lore and immersion. Avoiding battle is something most of the free peoples wanted. Actually a lot of todays values of freedom and free speech, forgiveness and yada yada are things Tolkien injected into his books. PvP IMO, because it purposefully pits one player against another (ala a game) is not very fitting. However it may work but I think we should be looking at it differently.\r\n\r\nI know this may sound completey beyond the pale, but what about a good and evil or shades of grey instead of PvP? Similar yet not the same. I think Tolkien realy setup a black and white in many cases in his writings, and in many others there are many shades of grey and differing views based upon perspectives. Orc vs Elf is black and white, thats easy but human vs human? Not so much I\'d say. I will defer until I can sort more out, but one last note to think about.\r\n\r\nFinal death.. you die you die... thoughts? \r\n\r\nJohn'),(214,'e341d23d1a','','you die, you die, yes.....\r\nI agree that it should be final.\r\nbut!\r\nsay you have saved your game before you die.....\r\nthat is the only way to restore your character\'s life....\r\nwhich, in case of a \"party\" member dying, should we go that way(or at least let there be a possibility of that), there is no way to restore their lives, like in Baldur\'s Gate 2, where you can walk up to most temples and buy the resurrection spell.....you die, and you\'ve not saved for ages, the consequence is that you are dead.\r\nAnd you\'ll have to start over.'),(215,'8e530a719f','','Good thread going here. A few thoughts... \r\n\r\nI like the idea which UO portrays in skill advancement, with one cavaet, repitition. In UO is was not uncommon to see people plugging a penny into the key board to hold down a key so their character could swing an axe all day to get his lumberjacking skill up there. It\'s a grind and encourages repitition, which also invovled 3rd party macro\'ing that does your skill for you, which is even worse.\r\n\r\nConsider: Skills advance via use, but also I feel to implement the M/A into this, there needs to be a \"teaching\" skill which allows for increased \'transfer\' to the apprentice or increased efficiency. This would decrease the time it takes to go up a % in say sword crafting. But both characters need to be present and \'working\' together. This ought to be limited by time. So one can NOT macro or hold the key down for 2 hours to get his craft up from 10% to 60% in one sitting. A time governor (in game) should be there. Stats or perhaps Talents or better yet blood line or heritage (aka a son of a Gwaith-i-Mirdain) ought to have an affect on ability as well. This will really tie in the lore and family/heritage aspects.\r\n\r\nI like the ideas of race progression, but do we know what time period the context of this game is taking place? People are mentioning Eldar, that is or should be off the play scale by a lot. Even a Noldor should be off the scale as well. Is playing a mortal so difficult or demeaning? In the books, the story was about the mortals and the elves were a side show (3rd age of course). Wouldn\'t the reverence the immortal races deserve be best conveyed in the game as NPC\'s or GM\'s ? Would a mortal opening to the game be a good start and perhaps an add on or expansion be possible that would open the door to imortality in Arda? Perhaps we could have a web site where people could apply (when said expansion is out) and write a short essay as to why they would be a great elf. As we all know, separating the l33t/powergamers/chaff from the immersive/lore/EoI\'ish/wheat players would be easy to spot in their ability to write. Yes I\'m a nazi when it comes to debasing the elves in any way.\r\n \r\nJohn'),(216,'3b5e862bec','','John writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:3b5e862bec]Is playing a mortal so difficult or demeaning?[/quote:3b5e862bec]\r\n\r\nNo, but for some of us playing an elf offers us something that is consonant with who we are or would like to be. For example, I like being an elf because of the depth of history, potential complexity of character, and subcreational ability inherent in the race. There\'s a secular spirituality to them that appeals to me. That doesn\'t mean that I (or any other \'elf\' PC) needs to be a Noldo/Nolde, but I wouldn\'t want to exclude the elves from play. After all, all of us here (so far) are members of EoI for a reason.\r\n\r\nAs for the \'elf-naziism,\' I certainly would want to protect our concept and realization of elves from those who would debase Tolkien\'s vision of them. We have already begun discussing how to limit them in other threads--possibly by application and selection.'),(217,'3ee2855d4d','','I will start a new thread for Death. I think it will generate a lot of discussion.'),(218,'cacacce372','Death','In another thread, two of our members have endorsed permadeath when a PC is killed. See [url]http://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=36[/url] .\r\n\r\n\r\nI respectfully disagree. If a player has invested a great deal in a PC, especially if we have a skill system, it could be very detrimental to fun (this is a game) if that investment is lost because of some accident of play. \r\n\r\nDeath can be handled as in many games as serious injury or unconsciousness. On one ME server I play in, when a player dies, s/he is sent to Mandos, where Namo gives choices: 1) return to the bind point; 2) resurrection by the player\'s party (the PC is sent to the party leader\'s location); or remain in Mandos. Since it uses the NWN engine, there are penalties in gold and XP for dying and going to Mandos. One can be revived without visiting Mandos and thus without penalty by clerics or people with the proper scrolls.\r\n\r\nI would like to find an alternative to these penalties, though I rather like the introduction of Mandos into the game. Perhaps a period of convalescence, during which one can still function, but at less than full efficiency. Thus, when crafting, for example, skill accumulation might be at a rate of half the usual, until recovery was complete.\r\n\r\nWe could, of course, include the option of PC permadeath--Namo of Mandos could offer that choice.'),(219,'4c1fde72d8','','While there is any chance for lag, bugs, or poor design could lead to the death of a PC...I highly discourage thoughts of perma-death. If we could be compeltely sure that it was their own stupidity that got them killed, even then...its still a game.'),(220,'849584d717','','A plausible use of PvP would be in large events (GM-monitored wars for example) or kinship-wars (virtuous/good vs corrupt/evil).\r\n\r\nApart from that, we could perhaps use a \"sparring\" ability, as an added training for your character in swordfighting/... (I\'m thinking of the last samurai now, where the samurai fought each-other with wooden swords to enhance their skill with the blade). Because only by practicing your skill, will you enhance it, and who would be a better adversary then a master-\"swordfighter\" / ... to learn from. After all, you won\'t learn much from fighting animals, or evil/corrupt men/elves/... when they kill you, or people so stupid that they run into your sword and kill themselves. :roll:'),(221,'307b74ecfc','','I would disagree as well, for the same reasons as Matt describes. \r\nSay you spent months on your character, which is now the master of a guild, and well known in the world of \"Ardo Online\". But suddenly, you get killed because of a huge amount of lag , server crashing or other plausible reasons. Would you just say: \"oh well. That\'s that, let\'s start all over again\"? I don\'t think so.\r\n\r\nThe difficulty will be to design a plausible system that can allow you to be resurrected. resurrection on the field is a no for me (that never happened), but the Mandos idea sounds rather nice.'),(222,'1856bca381','','Perhaps there is a programming mechanic that can discern packetloss and connectivity time outs etc.. from being in over your head, eg. taking a \'1st level\' guy and heading into a Troll den. Maybe a stasis or invulnerability protects a lagged out PC and moves them to their home city upon logging in again, no harm done. \r\n\r\nNo one comes back in Middle Earth, less Gandalf. Ressurrection is a concept alien to Middle Earth (even Noldor/Eldar died) and just because we are talking game here, doesn\'t mean we have to automatically throw out the idea of permanent death. If perma death can be avoided due to mechanical/technical issues why not use it? Making bad choices and suffering the consequences are a realistic part of life, why not inject that into the game (we would surely be breaking ground in the MMO world) It is the fact that it is a game which allows you to make another character and play more. \r\n\r\nI too am very fond of characters I have played online and pen and paper, but nothing draws more attachment and personal enjoyment than knowing that perma-death is always out there and all the choices I make are a risk or can be. Playing without real risk, dilutes the experience for me at least.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(223,'2a9c23dba0','','Let me preface this with a statement: I love pvp, FPS multiplayer is probably my favorite genre. I loved pvp in swg...most of the time.\r\n\r\nIt needs to be said that when you introduce pvp, you greatly limit what each class or skill can do as well as any \"cool\' stuff that you want to add because it would unbalance things. You would end up having to make hobbits as good as elves in all things. Or atleast close. Yes we could ignore that, just tell folk not to challenge other races in something they will get beat in. Have the only plausible duels be between characters of the same race and class....but what if we go with skills...then we only have the same race. \r\n\r\nI like the idea of \"sparing\". Designate a skill to teach them, and then all things are go. If you <i>lose</i> then you get experience.'),(224,'89bd86661b','','Perhaps we can leave it up to the player to choose whether they have been \'killed\' (=permadeath) or direly wounded (=recovery, possibly with a period of convalescence and lowered capacity).'),(225,'f896687d24','','Unfortunatly, there is not a way to tell if it was packet loss or a time or if it was the player unplugging their modem/computer to prevent themselves from dying. This is exactly what used to happen with games that had perma-death. \r\n\r\nTo stop this developers introduced a time that characters stayed in game and where attackable. What you suggest is the opposite of this and based on what I\'ve mentioned already...Its not a solution that will work.\r\n\r\nThat said, please continue to debate this topic as I would like to see a solution that fits better with lore...being \'gravely\' injured everytime you go to battle is a little loose on the lore.'),(226,'c3c8ebaa3a','','What about this: You can have \"children\" in the game.\r\n\r\nWhen you die, you become your child, which has already some of the abilities you had (genetic transfer), but not all. (I believe it was like this in AC ?)\r\n\r\nThis would solve the fact that we won\'t need to resurrect someone, and it fits in lore that the son would take the fathers place.\r\n\r\nOf course you can only have a child after doing a particular quest, and you need a wife (duh)...'),(227,'c078a45d26','','Sparring is a nice idea, but it does not compare to real life. Their is a huge difference between going \'full out\' on someone to kill them and pulling every punch. Sparring in MMO\'s is abused and people just get together to up skill without risk. They could take turns taking the dive so the other guy gets the exp and visa versa.\r\n\r\nIt does teach about the technical side of hand to hand combat though and has its place but taking a real veteran seasoned in many wars and pitting him up against one that has sparred his entire life, I\'d always bet on the veteran winning. Am I getting too realistic?\r\n\r\nJohn'),(228,'6aa79f23ef','','Shall we come up with a skill list we would like to see?\r\n\r\nJohn'),(229,'0fd6dac4c2','','[quote:0fd6dac4c2=\"Celebmirtan\"]Sparring is a nice idea, but it does not compare to real life. Their is a huge difference between going \'full out\' on someone to kill them and pulling every punch. Sparring in MMO\'s is abused and people just get together to up skill without risk. They could take turns taking the dive so the other guy gets the exp and visa versa.\r\n\r\nIt does teach about the technical side of hand to hand combat though and has its place but taking a real veteran seasoned in many wars and pitting him up against one that has sparred his entire life, I\'d always bet on the veteran winning. Am I getting too realistic?\r\n\r\nJohn[/quote:0fd6dac4c2]\r\n\r\nOf course the veteran fighter would win, but if you learn the tricks from a veteran, which is what i mean, you\'ll do ok. After all you\'ll be \"sparring\" with that same veteran fighter. There are still some other things that come into play when fighting say, an orc, emotions, which can increase the difficulty of a fight (fear, red-hot anger), or make it easier (adrenaline push).\r\n\r\nSay for example, if we make a setting in the 4th age, the captain of the guard in minas Tirith would be a master swordsman (one of the gm\'s would be him), one who has fought many wars. For the elves, someone like Glorfindel? etc. So it\'s always a gm in the beginning, and later on (hopefully) some of the PC\'s will become sword-masters as well, and will be able to teach to others'),(230,'656ddb73fa','','You\'re talking basic skills now? I\'ld say take an example of the WoW skills ?\r\n\r\nHealing, herbalism, marksmanship, swordsmanship, crafting (wood, metal, clothes), cooking, ...'),(231,'bca6576a57','','I think that our first step should be discusing the merits of a skill based system, a class based system, or a mixture of the two. If any of you have ideas for something new and different with regards to \"skills\".\r\n\r\nSkill System: This allows players to pick and choose the skills and skill sets they train in. Allowing great variety also presents issues with balance. Also lowers the amount of team work and team building that goes into group battles, that is unless we put a cap on the number of skills. Then it becomes a lot harder to become a one man army (see swg for example of this type of skill system). In this system you gain skill through the doing of a skill, the more you do it the better you get. Another option to have training come with time, here everyone trains at the same speed...which has its pros and cons. The biggest con is that one who comes in latter in the game life will NEVER catch up. \r\n\r\nClass system: Gives players direction and makes it easier for them to have direction in the begining. Makes balancing a little easier since we know precisely what skills they are going to have. Also makes it easier for other players to identify what class you are. This could be a pro or con...more of a preference really. This is the system used in WoW to great affect...after all its the largest mmo at this time.\r\n\r\nWhat do I think? Well, since we are going with Lore and realism as it pertains to Arda... My suggestion is we go with the system that has the most variety as this suits rping the best. Since pvp will be limited at the most...the main balance we need is against the computer which is much easier. That said, I\'m not sure how the skill system should work. Do we have a cap on the number of skills... Do we have a tiered system like swg? Thoughts?'),(232,'0f476a82ad','','While reading the preface to the Silmarillion Second Edition, in his letter to Milton Waldman, I found the following:\r\n\r\n[quote:0f476a82ad]\r\n\"I have no used \'magic\' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is oblisged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operation of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter( since all humna stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there(in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their \'magic\' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. \r\n[/quote:0f476a82ad]\r\n(Forgive any topos you may find in there)\r\n\r\nI have finally found a good use for the time I spend in car on the way to work...Listening to the unabridged version of LOTR. Because of a comment that I made earlier about bards, and my realization that song actually plays a very large part in the \'magic\' used in Arda, I\'ve paid very close attention to it as I\'ve listened to LOTR and while reading anything related to Tolkien. \r\n\r\nIt turns out that I was even more wronge than I once thought. Case in point, see Tom Bombadil. Or the Creation in the Silmarillion for that matter. This ties in very well with the quote above. Elvish magic is Art...it is the creation(sub-creation) of something amazing and inspired. Not intented for power but for beauty or for whatever purpose Art serves. Those of you that discussed the theory that \'magic\' was simply magic to those that didnt understand it I believe are very close to the truth. I have held for some time that you can only create Art or atleast its much easier when you have an understanding of the material are you are crafting, be it words, melodies, or metal. \r\n\r\nAnd there are those of you who were talking of songs and bards. Though I will maintain that I would like to keep the traditional Bardness to a minimum, but I\'m sure there is a way to do it right. Songs and music are afterall Art, as is poetry and craftmenship.\r\n\r\nI\'ve said a piece, take it and run with it. I\'m not rightly sure what the correct answer is here.... Someone else take a crack at it :)'),(233,'d7e5045e79','Just a thought','Just something I\'ve been toying with in my brain.....\r\nas well as making a Fourth Age game and a game based in the First Age, how about making one based, much like ICE\'s MERP RPG, based around the middle of the first age.....MERP base most of it\'s quests and npc\'s on the TA 1640 year.....\r\nIt would, I believe, lead to a much wider range of choices for a player, settings, political intrigue(as was much the case in the North Kingdom and the South Kingdom).....adventurers(for those who have that sort of spirit)will find it very interesting, and challenging....as goes for all different types of character classes.\r\n\r\n\r\nThoughts?'),(234,'39a6a1ad5b','','I am writing a pen and paper RPG, and many of these same issues are relevant. What I have found over the many years I have gamed is that a non classed system or classless if you will, allows for more freedom, less stereotyping and unique growth of a character. \r\n\r\nHere is what I suggest:\r\n\r\nCommon Skills:\r\n\r\nClimbing, Swimming, Westron (Language), Stalking/Stealth/Hiding, Running and a few others, like cooking perhaps and some other basic things a medieval level of society would have. These skills are meant to be known at a basic level of proficiency. \r\n\r\nRacial/Cultural:\r\nThis would overlap onto the common skills, and add that unique flavor and perhaps enhance some of the common skills. For example, Hobbits could get a add in cooking or open up Herblore, Elves would get a second language and maybe a few others like history, music, star gazing/astrology or some natural affinity with rudimentary magic (very low based). \r\n\r\nGeographic:\r\nWell where you live often dictates what you can do.. Grow up in the mountains, you ought to have some survival skills pertaining to the cold, hunting maybe and so forth. A city dweller would get some street smarts like \'streetwise\', maybe trading/barter, some lore in goods perhaps... it really gets interesting and gives us an ability to make people unique based upon their social status, bloodline, geographic location and race.\r\n\r\nSocial:\r\nSon of a knight or ranger learns the ways/trade of his father. The Master and Apprentice come in here. One could define the social standing of the PC by a roll perhaps, maybe a very small chance of being a noble, which would perhaps open up some blood line traits (lifespan, magic potential if a Dunedain or Elf) and so forth. \r\n\r\nI would recommend skills be increased through use and time and this relates to my post in the level advancement thread. Starting skills ought to be a reflection of stats but stats themselves should not overwhelm the balance of the game. I like a percent 1-100 system myself and given that we could haggle over what a skill opener should be. There are many ways to determine starting skills and I can elaborate on this if this seems interesting enough to you.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(235,'c8663f625e','','Please do eleborate. I\'m interested to see how you\'ve set up your skill system. While probably undoable, it would be incredible if we could create a system that was almost invisible to the player. Dont let them see the numbers if they dont want to...this should atleast be an option for rping. Anyway, perhaps you can explain how you\'ve handled this, but it seems there is a lot of overlap between the skill areas...for instance...Geographic and Common..It is likely that the city dweller\'s skills fall under common for him. \r\n\r\nI may be off track trying to find a way to split these up and now that I think about it, skills may always fall into different areas... Lets start a list of potenatial skills(areas really) you would like to see.\r\n\r\nEquestrian(riding and breeding)\r\nArchery\r\nCrafting of all types\r\n--advancement should NOT be a grind, we have to find some way to do this right\r\nSwordsmanship\r\n--for every type of weapon we have we need seperate skills\r\nCartography\r\nLanguages\r\nStalking/Stealth/Hiding\r\nSenses (better hearing/sight ect.)\r\nTracking\r\nBeast lore\r\n--understanding the beast (ie. /coning a mob)\r\nHerb lore\r\nLore? (who knows what falls under this, go read Lore forum for ideas)\r\nClimbing, running, Jumping\r\n...keep going.\r\n\r\n\r\nMoment of Inspiration: What if we could get all our skills on a 2d plane, maped out according to how related they are. Ie. herb lore lies next to healing abilities. Now, having that laid out and we argue over it for 5 years... then, let the playeres increase in an area. But it increases the other skills around it in a radial manner. Which makes sense I think. Visually it becomes a 3d map. Which makes it very fun and interesting to look at. Thoughts?'),(236,'87a9cf382f','','I will get that info hopefully today.\r\n\r\nRead this on EA website:\r\n\r\nhttp://www.eagames.com/official/lordoftherings/thebattleformiddleearth/us/subpage.jsp?src=upcoming_copy\r\n\r\nJ'),(237,'a4fb73c8d2','','Bruce was with ICE from early on and he is currenty CEO.\r\n\r\nC.E.O.: Bruce Neidlinger (bruce@ironcrown.com) \r\n\r\n\r\nWhere We Are:\r\nIRON CROWN ENTERPRISES\r\n112 Goodman Street\r\nCharlottesville, VA 22902\r\nUSA \r\n\r\n\r\nphone: 434.244.9381\r\nfax: 434.244.2661\r\n\r\n\r\nnot sure if they answer the phones..\r\n\r\nJohn'),(238,'5a2707ae37','','Matt,\r\n Real quick a few points.\r\n\r\nOne can use Skill Categories such as \"athletic\" or \"combat\" and have sub-skills or specific skills underneath. \r\n\r\nIf a pc doesn\'t possess the specific, he falls back onto the category skill with a penalty. So you could say Category Skill % + Specific Skill % = Total Skill. Factors already listed can go into getting those %\'s but that is one way of doing it. \r\n\r\nId suggest a skill list, and not from WoW, I think I can rip a list out pretty fast here since I\'ve already got one. Take a look then see what that gets stirring idea wise. I\'ll post the skill list on a new thread.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(239,'128005d6d7','','ok, I look foward to it. Did my list look like it came from WoW?'),(240,'79f2ef1dec','Skill List (draft)','Matt here is a draft list, I cut some things out because it is a pc game and some things just don\'t fit. It will need to be worked on and modified but it is a start. Note that the combat stuff needs a ton of attention but the list should cover just about anything someone could pickup and use.\r\n\r\n\r\nWeapon/Combat Skills\r\n\r\nImpact-Crush Weapons\r\nEdged Weapons\r\n2-Handed Weapons\r\nBow/Missile Weapons\r\nThrown Weapons\r\nPole/Staff Weapons\r\nBrawling/Grappling/Fist Fighting\r\nMounted Combat\r\n\r\nArmor Training\r\n-Light (cloth & soft leather)\r\n-Medium (hard leather & chain)\r\n-Heavy (chain & plate)\r\n\r\nAcrobatics\r\nAmbush\r\nAnimal Handling/Care\r\nAppraisal\r\nArt/Music (Specify)\r\nAthletic Games\r\nBasic Math\r\nBoat Piloting\r\nBrawling/Street fighting\r\nCaving/Spelunking\r\nClimbing\r\nCrafting (List Specific)\r\nDemon\\Devil Lore <-- may not apply\r\nDiplomacy\r\nDirection Sense\r\nDistance Running\r\nDragon Lore\r\nFaerie Lore\r\nFarming\r\nFirst Aid\r\nForaging\r\nGambling\r\nGardening\r\nHeraldry\r\nHerbalism\r\nHistory (Specify)\r\nHunting\r\nLanguages (Specify)\r\nMagical Language (Specify)\r\nMap Making\r\nMeditation \r\nMilitary Tactics & Organization\r\nMining\r\nNavigation\r\nPick Locks\r\nPick Pockets\r\nRegion Lore (Specific)\r\nRiding\r\nRead Runes/Glyphs/Wards\r\nStalk\\Hide\r\nStar-Gazing\r\nStreetwise\r\nSubduing\r\nSurvival (Specify Climate)\r\nSwimming\r\nTracking\r\nTrading\r\nUse/Remove Poison\r\nUse/Remove Traps\r\nWeather-Watching'),(241,'347b2cfca6','','Remember, EA has access to the books, but Turbine still retains exclusive rights to make any MMORPG\'s based on The Hobbit and LotR. There is a distinct difference there....the MMORPG part.\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(242,'61a948cad5','','The mid 3rd age is always where I ran my pen and paper games using MERP/Rolemaster. \r\n\r\nIt provides a real wide avenue of choices. Even the 15th century is good, Arnor is still semi intact as the Angmar has yet to launch its massive invasions of 1409. Circa 1700, Moria is still being delved by the dwarves and the Balrog has yet to have been unleashed. The ring wraiths are about and Sauron is still stirring. Orcs are growing in the Misty Mountains and things are getting darker... it is a prime time to have people doing good deeds.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(243,'d5822d067c','','I like this time frame better than the Fourth Age. The Fourth Age is the end of many things we care about, and the lore that we love becomes much less relevant. Early to mid-third Age is eminently playable, and it can be very lore-intensive.'),(244,'ce30fdedfc','','Excellent, I\'m going to attempt to catagorize that list similar to the way the first section was. I\'ll post it here.'),(245,'597733bc3b','','Matt, I think you are on the right track, most definitely. The quote you located is quite approporate and useful. I have to say, the notion of \"subcreation\" as the art of the elves, and even of the Valar, is perhaps the very thread which we have been dancing around since day one of this topic. \r\n\r\nAs I read over the quote you included, I also thought of Melkor, Sauron and even Saraman, each of whom bent their wills and art not to creation, but to submission, control, darkness and therefore destruction. So, perhaps we can work with the opposition here as well, subcreation, subdestruction, as we earmark how and why individuals manifest themselves as magical (artful?) beings.'),(246,'708b6cb196','','Michael writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:708b6cb196] the notion of \"subcreation\" as the art of the elves, and even of the Valar, is perhaps the very thread which we have been dancing around since day one of this topic[/quote:708b6cb196]\r\n\r\nFor what it\'s worth, it\'s been here all along, though we didn\'t actually follow it up much. Here\'s something from quite early in the thread:\r\n\r\n[quote:708b6cb196]As pointed out in many places, elves are subcreators by nature, and they have a special affinity with living things. Thus they might well be able to work with some of the druidic and fine arts and healing, for example, earlier than other races. There would probably be lore-based specializations among the subcategories, so that, for example, Silvan elves might have a special bent for druidry (arts of nature). We know that some elves had a great gift for the subcreation of artifacts, from gems to weapons to musical instruments. At the highest reaches of skill and power, some mind-powers might be achieved. In all cases, however, this would normally not be a matter of spellcasting so much as a form of concentration and activation of the subcreational fea. [/quote:708b6cb196]'),(247,'c2916fd38a','','NOTE: I\'m going to edit this list so we have a current copy, I\'ll mark new things with *.\r\n\r\nMany skills can fall in more than one area. I dont see this as a problem, just put skills where they fit the \"most\"\r\nSkills that compliment each other(synergies) and even directly affect the others in another area are fine.\r\n\r\n\r\nWeapon/Combat Skills \r\n\r\nImpact-Crush Weapons \r\nEdged Weapons \r\n2-Handed Weapons \r\nBow/Missile Weapons \r\nThrown Weapons \r\nPole/Staff Weapons \r\nBrawling/Grappling/Fist Fighting -- also in Common Knowledge under Rural\r\nBrawling/Street fighting --also in Common Knowledge under City\r\nMilitary Tactics & Organization \r\nMounted Combat \r\n\r\nArmor Training \r\n-Light (cloth & soft leather) \r\n-Medium (hard leather & chain) \r\n-Heavy (chain & plate) \r\n\r\nLore: (Rather expanded version, I took lore to mean anything that would be considered ancient knowledge or wisdom)\r\n\r\nArt/Music (Specify) \r\nDemon\\Devil Lore <-- may not apply \r\nDragon Lore \r\nFaerie Lore \r\nHeraldry \r\nHistory (Specify) \r\nLanguages (Specify) \r\nMagical Language (Specify) \r\nMeditation \r\nRegion Lore (Specific) \r\nRead Runes/Glyphs/Wards \r\nStar-Gazing (Not sure what you meant here)\r\nDiplomacy \r\n\r\nCrafting (List Specific) \r\n--everything to craft goes here :)\r\n\r\nCommon Knowledge or skills, could be folded into Lore(regional)--Needs better name.\r\nCooking\r\nBasic Language\r\n\r\n--City\r\nAppraisal \r\nBasic Math \r\nTrading\r\nStreetwise (what does this skill entail?)\r\nGambling \r\nSubduing (Um...not sure what you mean here)\r\nPick Locks \r\nPick Pockets \r\n--Rural\r\nForestry(there should be a better name of the cutting down of trees\r\nMining\r\nFarming \r\nGardening\r\nHorse Breeding(may not be actual skill)\r\nFishing\r\n\r\nPhysical Skills:\r\n\r\nAcrobatics \r\nAthletic Games (need this? will it not be determined by the other skills they have?)\r\nCaving/Spelunking \r\nClimbing \r\nDistance Running \r\nJumping\r\nSprinting\r\nSwimming \r\n\r\nSurvival Skills: (may need a better name)\r\n\r\nClimate specific survival:\r\n-Mountains\r\n-Forest\r\n-Cold/hot?\r\n\r\nAmbush\r\nAnimal Handling/Care\r\nAnimal Knowledge\r\nAnimal Taming*\r\nBoat Piloting \r\nDirection Sense \r\nFirst Aid \r\nForaging \r\nHerbalism \r\nHunting \r\nMap Making \r\nNavigation \r\nRiding \r\nStalk\\Hide \r\nTracking \r\nUse/Remove Poison \r\nUse/Remove Traps \r\nWeather-Watching\r\n\r\nThoughts?'),(248,'a52ccc5baf','','I\'ve liked animal taming on UO. It permits one to adopt animal companions. Horses must be tamed to be ridable.'),(249,'81c51718fb','','I like it....\r\nit\'s certainly fits in with the whole rp scheme....'),(250,'bfa076f900','','[quote:bfa076f900=\"karakedi\"]For what it\'s worth, it\'s been here all along, though we didn\'t actually follow it up much. Here\'s something from quite early in the thread:\r\n[/quote:bfa076f900]\r\n\r\nHeh, I hadn\'t realized that you had already pointed us to the same vocabulary, but I think it is worth quite a bit as it suggests that we are still in the same spiral. Certainly, we have been speaking along the same vein. I love that these conversations are what spurred Matt to pick-up on this specific annotation.'),(251,'aa62ff80c0','','I think it\'s great to read this thread, because I can just hear the wheels in your brains turning......working overtime, brainstorming.....\r\nit\'s very comforting to know that I\'m sharing this project with yous guys......keep it up, you\'re brilliant.'),(252,'00b2a04469','','Karakedi, What about purchasing a horse? I certainly agree that if the horse is not purchased it must be tamed though. And I\'ve been thinking of writting up a suggestion for pets in general that should prove an interesting write... I\"m going to edit that list to include animal taming as I think it certainly has a place.'),(253,'c1eb8760cc','','Michael. Or Mike if you want to avoid confusion..'),(254,'012d5d0518','','If you\'ll excuse my backtracking (I have no knowledge of business proposals):\r\n\r\n\': Fourth Age\' makes it sound like this is part of a series. Do you really want people standing, quizzically studying the shelves of computer stores around the world? Project Arda sounds better for a working title so far. \r\n\r\nI seriously doubt they\'d let us have MEO, but it would be nice...\r\n\r\nM.'),(255,'236b8a5d83','','I think a good next step would be to just jot down some notes under each skill.. like a short definition of its affect on game play... more like brainstorming on how these skills have in game application.\r\n\r\nFor example... weather watching would be really cool, if our world had moving weather and seasons which means the stars move and the moon moves and waxes and wanes thus affecting how dark it gets at night?\r\n\r\nJohn'),(256,'e4a055a245','','Ok, a few thoughts.\r\n\r\nPvP is good. If, say, my elf was patrolling the wilderness and happened across another player who is known to associate with orcs (let us assume that Haradrim or similar are available as playable for the moment), it would make very little sense for me [i:e4a055a245]not[/i:e4a055a245] to engage him, it would not be very characterful. Assuming I didn\'t have pressing business to be on with, or he was more powerful than me.. \r\n\r\nI don\'t think that making people only play for the free peoples is a good idea either. Villains are what make the game fun. However the rules for pvp would have to be clearly defined. Disallowing it in populated areas (except, perhaps, in times of war) might be a route to consider, though then you have policing issues.\r\n\r\nAs for limiting classes: Why? I don\'t see why things have to be \'fair\'. For example I would expect a dwarf warrior to be able to beat a hobbit into the ground, unless the hobbit was exceptionally cunning. People will just have to learn how to use their class/race properly. That\'s not to say that you shoyld make it impossible for certain classes to win over others (on the other hand there is a thing called \'teamwork\'...). We\'ll just have to be careful about making certain races more appealing than others. If we make each as individual as possible....\r\n\r\nI suggest making Men one of the most easily-played races, good all-round, but less specialised than say, a dwarf (new thread time?). \r\n\r\nSparring would be an interesting addition - as long as you couldn\'t learn too much from it. Perhaps having to find more competent teachers as your skill progresses might be a way of slowing people down, especially if these teachers were scarce.\r\n\r\nM.'),(257,'1ade6ee1c3','','Trouble with perma-death is that at low-levels (to take a NWN example) you tend to die. A lot. At that time you probably have only just got the game, you don\'t know anyone, you have no equipment (much less gold for healing supplies) and the urge to explore. Which is pretty suicidal as you don\'t know the area, having just logged on... \r\n\r\nPerhaps making PD only for \'high level\' characters? Though that would seriously hack people off, if they\'ve spent X hours getting to level obscene...\r\n\r\nI would support PD as a voluntary thing, and perhaps on special DM-run quests. The threat of death would be a nice twist for the adrenaline junkies...\r\n\r\nThat said, resurrection is stupid. I\'d personally go for lowering skill point gain \'till fully recovered or somesuch.\r\n\r\nM.'),(258,'5bfff1eb3b','Re: Races and \'magic\'','[quote:5bfff1eb3b=\"karakedi\"]I also think that there should be different kinds of magic available to the different races. \r\n\r\nDwarves would almost certainly follow their maker, Aule, in a specialization in things of the earth: stone, gems, metals, and perhaps wood and bone when no longer part of a living thing. For them, this would probably be partly inherent subcreational ability, so there would be some skills--of an apparently magical nature to such as the hobbits--that they would develop quite early.\r\n\r\nAs pointed out in many places, elves are subcreators by nature, and they have a special affinity with living things. Thus they might well be able to work with some of the druidic and fine arts and healing, for example, earlier than other races. There would probably be lore-based specializations among the subcategories, so that, for example, Silvan elves might have a special bent for druidry (arts of nature). We know that some elves had a great gift for the subcreation of artifacts, from gems to weapons to musical instruments. At the highest reaches of skill and power, some mind-powers might be achieved. In all cases, however, this would normally not be a matter of spellcasting so much as a form of concentration and activation of the subcreational fea.\r\n\r\nAs always, humans are both versatile and limited. They might have gifts along the lines of dwarves or elves that would remain dormant until awakened by proper teaching, which would be hard to reach and hard to achieve. Or they might be drawn to the necromantic, which would be out of bounds for elves and probably for dwarves. In gameplay terms, this would mean that they might start on the path to activating \'magical\' gifts fairly early, but unless they were corrupted, it would be a long time before they could do more than wortk on building a foundation.\r\n\r\nSpeaking of corruption, do we intend to include playable orcs, goblins, and other minions of evil? If so, PCs would probably mostly be more than foot-soldiers and lance-fodder. Thus, they might also have some affinities for necromancy or other distortions of sub-creation. The more powerful they became, the more they would terrify all but those of very strong fea or will. The developmental path of the corrupt and evil would be similar to that of humans, though it might be accelerated by some item (such as a ring) that also would cost them dearly in, for example, life force.[/quote:5bfff1eb3b]\r\n\r\nKarakedi\r\n\r\nCould you elaborate more on what kind of magic you are talking about when it pertains to men (non Dunedain specifically). I have never sensed that men possess much if any real magic power. This is especially the case, imo during the entire 3rd age. I have always felt that there is a wanining of magical ability in Middle Earth as time goes on and the blood lines diminish. Power in Middle Earth was usualy a trait passed down from elven blood or artifacts such as the rings of power. Common men should not have magic ability unless they have some link to westerness or far distant elven ancestors... its just not in the cards for them to possess any spell ability. Most of the magic in ME was subtle and elusive in nature. Even the corrupting power of the 3rd Age\'s greatest item, the One Ring, worked slowly and subtley in its corruption. I don\'t want to see magic allowed just for the sake of game, that would really take away from the uniqueness that is Middle Earth. \r\n\r\nI do understand why most want magic, at least for the MMO game sake, but I just want to stress that we should not be looking to compare to other MMO\'s, none of them were based upon such great literature and in those MMO\'s game was first and not accuracy to anything. As to the \'dark\' side of things in Middle Earth, orcs and evil men should be considered as playable, but again the lack of magic should be the standard. The exceptions I can think of were the Istari, those with rings of power, those of pure blood such as the Numenorians (based also upon elven blood) and dwarves. I\'ll get back to this after lunch.. I must go.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(259,'eb045efd59','','Are you willing as the villian to have no contact with the other side?\r\n\r\nYou realize this means creating double the content?\r\n\r\nIf you mean a bad good guy(you live in the same city)... that changes things. And you wont be killing him if you find him because you are on the same \"side\". \r\n\r\nAnyway, mabye I should ask for a better description of what you meant by villian. Are you talking virtuous vs. corrupt? Or Free peoples vs. Dark Lord (you are under his dominion: orcs, Haradrim, ). Or are we talking, good guys vs. bandits and brigands?'),(260,'56e94b8cb6','','[quote:56e94b8cb6=\"Matt\"]Are you willing as the villian to have no contact with the other side?[/quote:56e94b8cb6]\r\n\r\nYes, though the option of infiltration would be nice.\r\n\r\n[quote:56e94b8cb6]You realize this means creating double the content?[/quote:56e94b8cb6]\r\n\r\nNot really. Think about it: say, for instance, you have Umbar in the mod as a location for the good guys to go bashing things. How hard is it going to be to add a few extra buildings to set the area up as a base for the bad guys? Bad and good frequent the same areas, let\'s not forget. It just involves putting a few extra \'city\' type areas in.. [size=9:56e94b8cb6]I hope[/size:56e94b8cb6]\r\n\r\n[quote:56e94b8cb6]If you mean a bad good guy(you live in the same city)... that changes things. And you wont be killing him if you find him because you are on the same \"side\".[/quote:56e94b8cb6]\r\n\r\nWrong. If I am a virtuous \'toe the line\' type I\'m certianly going to smack any thieves very hard (for example)\r\n\r\n[quote:56e94b8cb6]Anyway, mabye I should ask for a better description of what you meant by villian. Are you talking virtuous vs. corrupt? Or Free peoples vs. Dark Lord (you are under his dominion: orcs, Haradrim, ). Or are we talking, good guys vs. bandits and brigands?[/quote:56e94b8cb6]\r\n\r\nAll of the above. Let\'s see what\'s feasable?\r\n\r\nM.'),(261,'a091255d1c','','I see.....\r\nsay, someone at really high level dies....to \"punish\" their stupidity(for that would be something that could cause someone at high level to die), we take 10-15 levels off them.....take most of their stuff off them but leave them most their gold/moolah/greens......that way, they have enough gold to buy some new equipment/essentials and, should they find whoever \"killed\" them(say it\'s a troll that\'s killed and looted their dead bodies), if they manage to beat them, they find their stuff again, albeit they are still at the lower level.'),(262,'8aa4e83bea','','Good idea, however these are my objections:\r\n\r\nA) That would only work if we used a level system (like D&D) which I strongly oppose. and to be honest losing experience (i.e. the sum total of your knowledge) isn\'t really a realistic way to model grave injury (death). Perhaps some kind of temporary ability/ skill decrease with a period of convalescence at \'reduced skill point gain\'?\r\n\r\nB) Taking levels off people will irritate them far more then kit-loss. Kit is easy to replace. Do you want to keep hold of your players?\r\n\r\nC) It isn\'t necessarily stupidity, it could be a game crash. Or an over-enthusiastic GM. Or a variety of reasons. Don\'t punish when it isn\'t their fault.\r\n\r\nD) It doesn\'t solve the \'respawn/ ressurect\' issue. You would still need a game mechanic for getting the injured back on their feet.\r\n\r\nKeep the ideas commin\'\r\n\r\nM.'),(263,'c86b41f138','','Yes, just plopping down some buildings should be quick (when the dev tool gets built). But, that is not the same as building the city, scripting npc\'s. Writting any quests, testing, polishing the city to look like a city should. Making sure there are npc \"good\" guys for the bad guys to quest on. And then, we have to make sure that there is stuff for the men of umbar to do in the \"good\" land. Which means more quests and npc\'s to script.\r\n\r\nBasically, anything you do for the free peoples in creating a city and land area, will have to be done for the other areas if you want them to be worth anything.\r\n\r\nLet me note here that if you have 2 sides then you must balance things. If not, one side will constantly be being killed and griefed. This means limiting the \"cool\" skills we can have. Since its ok to grief npc\'s... but a skill that can kill or disable a player in a blink can not be in and have balance. yes we can add a flag that says...\"this can not be used on players\" but what fun is it to have all these neat skills and then you suck in PvP because you either can use any of them or they have nerfed to oblivion.\r\n\r\nThat said. Keep throwing out ideas and solutions. Like I\'ve said a few times, I love PvP. I just dont see it happening in this game, there are just to many other factors and things that need to be done right. \r\n\r\nAlso, if we can come up with a solution and the only negative is double content...so be it, it can be done, it\'ll just take more time. So please, continue to think about this.'),(264,'c3b7b38fcf','','John writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:c3b7b38fcf]Could you elaborate more on what kind of magic you are talking about when it pertains to men (non Dunedain specifically). I have never sensed that men possess much if any real magic power.[/quote:c3b7b38fcf]\r\n\r\nIt is likely that, as you say, the power to effect \'magic\' among humans would be increasingly less available over time. However, those of noble Numenorean descent--including those born out of wedlock--might well have some form of affinity with what we would call magic through their (distant) elven descent. Because such gifts would run in some families but not be limited to them, they might appear in almost anyone whose family had been part of Gondor or Arnor.\r\n\r\nThese individuals might have special gifts of subcreation, persuasion, or the like. Any of the skills listed in another thread in this forum* could be enhanced by a special gift, and indeed some humans might be able to effect some necromancy if they were less than pure.\r\n\r\nIn general, however, I would not expect to see hurling of fireballs. Instead, human \'magic\' would probably be a combination of special gifts and affinities together with good strategy and tactics. Thus, for example, a human might light up some pinecones, note the way the wind was blowing, and lob them onto a hilltop covered with dry grass. If everything worked just right, the result could be a considerable amount of damage. To those not in the know, it would look like magic, but instead it might be a combination of weather-wisdom, observation of physical conditions, and quick thinking.\r\n\r\nJust some thoughts on the fly.\r\n\r\n* [url]http://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=39[/url]'),(265,'ccf363f6be','','Matt writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:ccf363f6be]Karakedi, What about purchasing a horse? I certainly agree that if the horse is not purchased it must be tamed though.[/quote:ccf363f6be]\r\n\r\n\r\nIn UO, one can buy a horse (and other creatures) from an NPC animal tamer for a fairly stiff price or from a PC who catches and tames them. A PC can also give a horse or other creature to another PC, of course.\r\n\r\nMy animal tamer PC is also a tailor and beginning smith. She has almost no fighting skills at all. Instead, she tames bears and panthers to serve as bodyguards when she ventures out, and when she is finished with her journey, she releases them.'),(266,'663bee6ac4','','Had a thought: How about the possibility of permanent damage (to stats/ skill usw.) instead of perm. death? You could make it serious enough to give people pause for thought before they run into a cave full of trolls, but not so serious as to ruin 6 000+ hours of playing.. N.B perm. damage wouldn\'t happen every time you die, but have a % chance based on what caused injury and so forth\r\n\r\nThis also gives us the option of having to have wound properly treated and proper convalesence to be had by an injured character - if they don\'t heal properly they get damaged further in some way, but if they do then the damage is lessened/ removed.\r\n\r\nM.'),(267,'930a2bd30b','','A penalty for death serves a few purposes. First I\'m going to outline them and then give a few guildlines for the penatly.\r\n\r\nI mispoke, a penalty serves one purpose...to punish for failing the goal. The goal, is to not die....you arnt suppose to die. It prevent people from acting like fools charging a group 100000 times to kill something once.\r\n\r\nA death Penalty should not:\r\n-Cause permanent damager or harm to a character or anything it owns.\r\n-Be so detrimental that they quit out of frustration.\r\n-Move the character across the world\r\n-Remove items that are precious to them\r\n-Result in the death of the character...well, then there wouldnt be a penatly...\r\n\r\nA death Penatly should:\r\n-be in some way unpleasant and the unprefered route\r\n-Take some time away from player\r\n\r\nIn my opinion WoW has a pretty good system. If you die, your spirit has to get back to your body. If you do, the only loss is time and durability of items. If you cant, you can res at the graveyard and be at 25% for 10 minutes. (Every attribute you have is at 25%).\r\n\r\nI think we should fall on the side of being easy on death as opposed to the other extreme of perma-death.'),(268,'e2973259f6','The history and life of a weapon','It has been done before, though weak and watered down, the customization and upgrading of weapons. LOTRO sounds like it has this in mind as well, though we have seen little of what they have planned. I propose we take this to the next level. I would like to see weapons and other items that have a life and history of their own. That will grow with the character, and can be passed on if they wish. With this in mind, your character may only have 1-3 weapons through their entire life. Thoughts? Other ideas?'),(269,'0570ce153b','','I\'m with Matt pretty much down the line, including being \'easy\' on death and using it only as a deterrent to foolish play (or to introduce an element of increased risk). However, in view of our committment to lore, we probably should not have it be \'death\' at all. If a human or dwarf dies, s/he\'s dead and gone. If an elf dies, s/he goes to Mandos for an indeterminate period of time but if returned to Middle Earth, comes back as a child. As far as I can remember, there have been no cases of immediate return of an elf to Middle Earth after death.\r\n\r\nThus, we probably should reserve death as such for voluntary permadeath. Otherwise, I recommend that we consider a heavily \'defeated\' PC to have been grievously wounded. Then we can require a period of recuperation, during which stats are gradually restored over a period of time (to be determined) unless healed by gifted or trained healers. (These could be both NPCs and PCs.)\r\n\r\nIn fact, these PCs could \'wake up\' at a house of healing near where they fell, permitting them to rejoin their parties after they regain enough strength to walk and attend to other needs. We can decide how long that will take.\r\n\r\nAnother thought: to add more immersion: perhaps the wounded PC could rejoin the party sooner if they agree to provide some kind of care to their incapacitated member. Perhaps they would need to stop to \'change the dressings\' of the wound or give extra rest. This would cost them some mobility and speed as a group, but their party member would be able to reach full function faster.\r\n\r\nFor variety, we could have severe poisoning by weapon or by natural secretions, e.g., spider bites. These would also entail some level of incapacitation and medical attention.'),(270,'6da12c8446','','Are you thinking of weapons like Turin\'s Black Sword or the subcreations of Eol? (Of course we wouldn\'t use those, but we might design some of our own.) This might be an interesting way to introduce some \'magic\' into our world.\r\n\r\nPersonally, I rather like the idea of \'pet weapons.\' Much more interesting than pet rocks. :P'),(271,'84eecc91b8','','\'Pet Weapons\'...An interesting way of putting it and generally, I think, what I was going for. I do not imagine them being overtly powerfull or having a \'mind\' of their own. But more like a lesser Sting or Glamdring. A weapon that grows in power because you have become attatched to it, you are used to it. It is part of your \'story\'. It is, for lack of a better work, become \'imbued\' with parts of your growing strength and legend. As such, even if you no longer use it, its more powerfull than it was and the next owner(should one exhist), will \'add\' their story onto \'yours\'. if they do greater works then it may increase again, if lower, then it will remain the same. Follow me?'),(272,'9549318943','','I think I do follow you. It would make it even more interesting if the weapon were to pick up a little of the owner\'s personality, so that, for example, it would activate in some way in the vicinity of favored enemies or the like.'),(273,'2498ac8fbc','','Precisely! Because of it has been used to kill orcs for years...Orcs fear it and anyone weilding it.'),(274,'820a0d1ca5','','I like!\r\nOk, so maybe I was a bit rash in the earliest of days, thinking it should be exactly like Middle-earth, where Elves go to Mandos and Men go some place Eru only knows.....possibly some special part of Mandos set aside for the Second Born.\r\n\r\nI do enjoy reading these discussions....I feel there is a lot of constructive thought going into this.'),(275,'37e2069758','','I think death in WoW is a total joke. There is no penalty from dying in WoW really. It a mere inconvenience and cost a pittance to repair items. I don\'t like to be lenient on death and there isn\'t a lot of room for me to budge on it.\r\n\r\nThe concept of looming death out to be significant enough for a player to be pretty damn sure he is willing to take the risk. If death is a mere inconvenience then I don\'t think completing quests will carry as much weight or significance. Without real risk the game to me seems diluted of realism.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(276,'ae3e2f7b1f','','Karakedi,\r\n Wouldn\'t that be more pure human enginuity rather than magic? Isn\'t that what makes humans special in their own way? We are finite, mortal and because of this our drive to be successful and dominant probably far out weighs many a elf, as they have an eternity to do things. We adapt, overcome and conquer... that to me is what it means to be human... I think magic ought to be a word carefully used in the game. Tossing it around everywhere, takes away from it being special. \r\n\r\n You are absolutely right in that no one even elves should be tossing fireballs around... But magic does exist, it just isn\'t in the form Dungeons and Dragons likes or one in which all the previous other MMO\'s out there have. Being different in these respects makes our Middle Earth project better IMO.... I guess I just try to look at not copying or trying to adapt any previous MMO model and try to stand apart from the others. To me Middle Earth is easy to do that.. its the perfect media to design in.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(277,'69c41a1c1f','','And an inconvenience is what I believe it should be. And it should be noted that there will always be lack of realism in a game...and until we manage to give full sensory input (ie. virtual reality that you plug into Matrix style), we will have to deny the full realism to players. Because eventually, someone is gonna die because of a lag spike and leave the game. And the goal of death is not to make people leave the game. \r\n\r\nA solution to having death be as penalized as you would like it, is make sure its difficult to die, requiring true stupidity on an experienced players part to end up dead. But that would get boring fast... We balance the game to make sure its a challenge, if we make death so bad, then people will \'grind\' and never experience the content because of the risk. (Though we could include great rewards for such a quest). I, personally, hate grinding, and if the only way to advance to go on a quest that could cost me more playing time than I spent on the quest in the first place if I died, which is always a chance in a well balanced game....I will not go. And also with severe penalty comes unwillingness to try anything new. Just some food for thought.'),(278,'85d50dd6f6','','John writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:85d50dd6f6] Wouldn\'t that be more pure human enginuity rather than magic? Isn\'t that what makes humans special in their own way?[/quote:85d50dd6f6]\r\n\r\nThat\'s why I write of special gifts and affinities. Thus such a human would be able to do more along the lines of his/her gifts than is normally expected, even from a powerful, charismatic normal member of the human race. Though the contributors would be subtle, in combination, they would produce effects that would seem magic to others.\r\n\r\nMagic need not be spectacular or the result of spellcasting. It might be manifested by extraordinary abilities and actions, though they would probably be different in style from the subcreational \'art\' practiced naturally by elves. If I think of a good example, I\'ll post it.'),(279,'a7e7b92373','','I don\'t think virtual reality is necessary in order to model realism in a virtual world. Making it harder to die means the players will put their characters in situations they probably normally would not venture into. They get a bulletproof mentality, and that makes a game boring. It isn\'t very entertaining to take as an example a 50th level WoW character into a 20th level instance (dead mines).. you just wade through things and the killing becomes routine and the reward insignificant.\r\n\r\nThere must be a way for death to always be an imminent threat to risk takers yet not a deterrant to the game itself. I think a balance can be found that pleases those like myself that support the concepts of final death or lean more in that direction and those who lean towards death as a slight inconvenience... .. more later.. I have a birthday party to get back to...\r\n\r\nJ'),(280,'7e8eabf77b','','An other idea I came up with on the offficials was this:\r\n\r\nWouldn\'t it be plausible some races, used dueling to find out who would be best suited to serve in their lords\' household (kind of like the Nost Tirith in EoI)\r\nThis way, PvP has a second use, namely getting up in rank in a more old-fashioned way.'),(281,'c7810070d0','','I have to say after meeting with the devs at LOTROG I came away impressed with their dedication to lore while still keeping the game fun. I am once again looking forward to playing LOTRO. I\'m still concerned about a few things, namely the UI, but overall I think I\'m going to have fun playing this game and the rest of the kinship will too.\r\n\r\nHence, I\'m thinking we should adjust our strategy and do one of two things.\r\n\r\n1.) Await Morth\'s 4th age story and consider whether we can make a truly fun game to play based off that background material.\r\n\r\n2.) Still send the letter to CT and see if there is any response about making a first age game. If there is not, make a nwn 2 1st age mod once that game comes out. This would be good practice for us if we then go on to make an actual 1st age game.'),(282,'25719d9aed','','I suggest we follow multiple tracks simultaneously:\r\n\r\n1. Find out what we can about Morth\'s (and ep and tib\'s stuff).\r\n\r\n2. See what we can find out about NWN2 as information becomes available.\r\n\r\n3. Continue to plan for games set in both the fourth age and the first age, since we have very little information about either #1 or #2 now. Many of the ideas we\'re discussing will work for either age, and we can adjust as needed once we decide on a track.\r\n\r\n4. Hold off on writing to CT until we have a clearer idea what we want to do and possibly a bit of a track record.'),(283,'6262097e02','','It might not be a bad idea to find out the logistics involved in getting CT to actually read something along the lines of a request. I have no doubt he has an agent, or publisher, or someone handling \"all things Silmarillion\". Perhaps just a query to the right person to see what it takes to get a letter under his personal eyes.\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(284,'76468346bd','','I\'m not sure how officially I am considered attached to this project. I was invited to give ideas and thoughts by Seregnin from our EoI affiliation.\r\n\r\nBut my name is Eric.\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(285,'ed581cbbdc','Travel....','So what do you guys/gals think about how the travel system should work. Our world will hopefully be as close to \"lifesize\" as possible... Should you always have to walk/ride to whereever you want to go...or will we have \"express\" travel between major cities to save time.... \r\n\r\nOk, Discuss!'),(286,'5a273df59a','','Depends how authentic you want it to be, to be honest. If we are going for as realistic as possible, then the fastest mode of transport is a good horse. Or a boat if you happen to live by water. Preferably changing every 20 miles or so.... that measn no instant/ nears instantaneous travel.\r\n\r\n(of course, elves would be able to travel faster. They always seem to for some reason =\\)\r\n\r\nOf course, that would cramp gameplay somewhat, especially if the \'time taken to travel\' was realistic (i.e. taking months to travel anywhere)\r\n\r\nMore thoughts later.\r\n\r\nMike.'),(287,'de363d81e8','','Why are you calling them kinships?\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(288,'01189715fb','','Are you discussing PvP from the aspect of having races of Shadow and races of the West?\r\n\r\nAre you going to allow races of the West to have PvP against each other?\r\n\r\nIt seems that a concensus needs to be reached whether to have orcs and other evil races as playable before beginning to discuss PvP, because the dynamics will change considerably in how to design PvP.\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(289,'c7872a58db','','I\'d like to add something fun, and little used...but definitely appropriate here...\r\n\r\n\r\nRiddling/Riddlemaster\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(290,'3cd542cbba','','Consider game-play...\r\n\r\n...do you really want a 1:1 to scale Middle-earth?\r\n\r\nHow many of you would have read LotR if you had been forced to read about every single step the Fellowship took? I\'m not talking about every single important step....I mean every single step. This is effectively what would be created with a 1:1 scale.\r\n\r\nPlayers wishing to live in Middle-earth may find it far less of an adventure if they must travel 9 months to get to Mordor from Eriador.....or 9 weeks, or 9 days even. If you make it 1:1 scale, yet then you allow cut-scenes, to what purpose the massive land mass? Give incentive for people to not simply cut-scene, else your land mass will remain only that, and I imagine your landscape design team will love you as well.\r\n\r\nI\'m hearing alot of realism here that will turn a gamer away. Is this a Middle-earth Sim project or a Middle-earth game? Perhaps that should be a foremost decision to be made.\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(291,'3c6b6934c3','','Some other options\r\n\r\nMiddle-earth:The Fourth Age (METFA)\r\n\r\nLiving Middle-earth (LME)\r\n\r\nMiddle-earth Alive (MEA)\r\n\r\n\r\nor my favorite... GEO\r\n\r\nGank an Elf Online\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(292,'c98b240ee5','Where are you and where should you be?','I\'ve greatly enjoyed reading all the ideas people are putting forth here. There are some real gems that could be utilized to make this game special. As an outside observer, however, I feel compelled to offer up some issues pertaining to why Shagne invited me here. \r\n\r\n1. Focusing on specifics -- I have been reading many of the ideas in design and other similar forums, and while the specifics are great, there is no concensus on anything general. I honestly can\'t say I know what this game\'s key content will be beyond the most basic, general idea of \"A roleplaying game geared toward lore.\"\r\n\r\n2. Establishing a plan -- This project is a huge undertaking. What timeline is set to establish when game content should be decided, game art should be decided, server requirements should be decided, ect...\r\n\r\n3. Establish the Visionary -- someone needs to be designated the overall project visionary. I would assume it\'s Shagne, but that\'s not necessarily true...perhaps Shagne needs a visionary with heavy game-design experience...should this person be hired, or asked to join with a specific future position anticipated and monetary compensation. Whoever is the designated Visionary should draft a Vision. For a project of this magnitude, that vision should be pretty damn long, with specific initial launching points for development teams to tag and begin expanding the vision.\r\n\r\n4. Establish mandatory meetings -- project leaders need to meet regularly to discuss what goals are being met, who is or is not doing their job, and establish solutions to fix problems. Someone needs to keep records of every meeting, every issue, every proposed solution, and outcomes.\r\n\r\n5. Establish authority -- a project such at this is an uphill climb from day one to launch. In the best of circumstances, everyone should realize that it will take a huge amount of sacrifice over a very LONG period of time for the project to see any shred of life. Shagne can ill-afford to have dead weight here. Anyone in a position of authority needs to recognize dead weight and remove it either to a position that will no longer slow the project, or a position of non-intereference (something Shagne might do with me after reading this rather abrupt post).\r\n\r\n\r\nIn essence, the forum looks as if everyone is popping ideas on the specifics, yet there appears to be little, if any, concrete framework/timeline/chain of command/goals/meetings of a consistent (and I mean consistent, I realize some scattered MSN discussions have taken place -- were any of them recorded for peer review?)\r\n\r\n\r\nI\'m going to keep looking over everyone\'s shoulder until Shagne asks me to stop. I\'m not here to criticize anyone, but I do feel compelled to let you all know that you\'ve discussed things for 6 weeks now, and while it\'s fun, it appears to be only fun. When does it become work, i.e. a \"labor of love\"?\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(293,'6e9f47b244','','Eric, \r\n\r\nYour points are very well taken. I think at the moment one of our problems is that some of our \'fire in the belly\' was lost after LOTROG I, where it looked as if Turbine was going to produce something much better than we had feared. Another one is that all this discussion has served the purpose of releasing some of the frustration we have felt about not being able to get much information about the proposed game, let alone influence its development. Yet another is that we are all gamers rather than game designers. It takes a shift in perspective that we have not yet achieved to think organizationally as well as in terms of content.\r\n\r\nYou are correct that we need a project manager. I\'ve worked on educational technology projects, large and small, and that role is vital to do the things you\'re talking about. With that kind of leadership, existing members of the group could team up to do an extensive vision statement.\r\n\r\nWe do, however, need someone to keep us on track, help us define that track, and ensure that the big picture is not lost (these may not be the same person). A project manager would not usurp Shagne\'s leadership. Instead s/he would undertake tasks need to be done but would still \'report\' to Shagne and whichever other leaders he wishes to include in a steering committee.\r\n\r\nWe can take two immediate steps. The first is to build on the list you started--needed functions. I am adding to your list these functions:\r\n\r\n(As part of planning): deciding priorities and distribution of tasks\r\n(Followup of planning): tracking progress \r\n(Keeping eye on ball): ensuring that the big picture is not lost\r\n\r\nOnce we have a decent task list, we need to estimate the amount of time needed for each major category.\r\n\r\nThe second step is an internal skills inventory of existing members. This would include listing:\r\n\r\n relevant skills\r\n amount of time available\r\n\r\nThen, whoever takes over the project manager function (whether an individual or a subcommittee) can examine the skills inventory and start to assign work. Sooner or later, we will need a dedicated project manager.\r\n\r\nkara'),(294,'f7336b7ab9','','I will provide a start on a skills inventory entry. Keep in mind that these can be edited and updated as we get ideas from what others post and as we define roles and tasks.\r\n\r\nI am a psychologist working in the domain of second language acquisition. My degrees are in linguistics (BA, MA) and clinical psychology (PhD). This promotes an interest in languages, motivation, and group dynamics. \r\n\r\nI am a qualified administrator and trainer for the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and also work with other individual difference variables. (For those who know and find it useful, my MBTI type is INTP.)\r\n\r\nLanguages provide me continuing fascination; I learn them quickly and enjoy finding out how they work, as well as how others learn them and what may get in their way.\r\n\r\nI have experience in educational technology projects related to language learning either directly or indirectly. My preferred role on these is design.\r\n\r\nMost of my career was spent in supervisory or managerial positions. My strengths were in vision, mentoring, and creativity. I founded a successful research and development unit and a highly successful student learning advisory service. My main weakness as a manager is a distaste for administrative detail and a neglect of public relations for substance.\r\n\r\nAs part of my work, I have designed and used databases and spreadsheets and made use of statistical software (SPSS). \r\n\r\nResearch is part of my work, with the result that:\r\n\r\nI am a published author (books and articles) and present frequently.\r\n\r\nIn addition, I am also an experienced workshop leader and work-group facilitator, though I\'ve only done that face-to-face.\r\n\r\nI am an amateur artist, working largely with drawing but to a limited degree with computer graphics (Photoshop).\r\n\r\nIt is likely that many in this group will share with me a preference for initiating over following through and maintaining.\r\n\r\nThis is probably far more than you want to know about karakedi, but it\'s a start on letting you know some of the domains that she can be helpful with.\r\n\r\nAmount of time: part time and variable through July 07. Amount determined partly by motivation, level of commitment, and presence/absence of higher priority tasks. After that, I expect to have retired and have far more control over my time.'),(295,'9927545b94','','I am totally against having teleporters, gates or any thing that resembles modern day travel. Difficulty in travel is the distance and that is an obstacle which kept 90% of the planet where it was born and raised. There is little reason to go \'adventuring\' because it was dangerous and took a long long time. \r\n\r\nI am not sure about a 1:1 scale, I do know land mass/scale is a big deal and has some affect on game play/loading times zones and how all that is dealt with. If we go large, I would like to see something at least as good as WoW and how they deal with transparent zones (more or less I think your PC is constantly loading data so you don\'t have to stop and wait for a new zone to load). This makes long distance travel virtually seemless. Its a nice break from other games which had zones which usually opened opportunities for players to get away from mobs by running to the zone. \r\n\r\nI think grand scale is better. Bigger is better when it comes to playing area. Cut scenes are interesting but that also adds tons of video production which is really expensive. Maybe a new picture or narrative could be read instead of some video. The thing that draws me to 1:1 is that you need hunters and outdoorsman/scouts to get people around and not get lost every time. This takes away from predicitability, and leaves a lot of space/time for players to discover the world. There should not be roads everywhere and getting lost should be a big risk. When we use 1:1, we get more use out of skills like foraging, star gazing, survival and hunting etc... Those become just as important against mother nature and the elements as your sword does against orcs. Will it get boring? well if the people we are trying to please are MMO types who want instant travel in a low magic medieval world then yes. The entire premise of the LoTR was based upon the long journey, racing against time and overcoming the elements and dangers of a harsh road. \r\n\r\nJohn'),(296,'2b963a10c3','','Well I\'ll give you the 2 cents on myself and what I think I can add to this.\r\n\r\nI\'m in my mid 30\'s, married and have 3 children. I work full time and have a decent career going. My strengths education wise are in history, which I possess a bachelors degree in. In particular, I am pretty well versed in ancient history and the middle ages as well at contemporary 20th century military history. I have pretty good creative writing skills as well. Recently I have decided to return to college to pursue a masters degree in fine art (drawing/painting) and see if I can perhaps consider a career change out of the technology field into art later on (not sure yet if that is plausable considering the posibilities of a major salary change)\r\n\r\nMy career which is in technology developed from my interest in PC\'s around (1993~) and has grown quiet a bit since then. I have been a technical lead for a consulting company that landed a million + dollar software/hardware integration deal at several regional hospitals in the midwest. After that I moved on to work at a major insurance firm as a network hardware specialist in systems and I finally wound up at my current position as a network engineer at the university I graduated from years ago (go figure!). I possess a well founded range of skills concerning networking, with a specialization on access layer enterprise level products. I have earned a few certifications along the way and my day to day work keeps me close to the changing technologies as they emerge. Currently I am, for my part, responsible for 20k + nodes and 300-400 switches spread across a campus wide environment. I also have done consulting as a side business for a few years now. I\'m scaling back on that and using my extra time to pursue art. (maybe Karakedi could share some of photos of his art with me! ) \r\n\r\nConcerning the game, I first am an avid fan of Middle Earth/Books. I am probably one of the more conservative of people here when it comes to maintaining the Tolkien vision/feel if you will, inside the game. I have been a pen and paper roleplayer for over 20 years now and I have also owned a brick and mortar retail game store from 1994-2003. I have contributed to some game designs in the past and I am currently attempting to design my own pen & paper RPG and self publish it. I have a very good understanding of gaming from that side of the coin but I do not possess much skill in computer game developement. Much of the MMO/CPU games were built upon the pen and paper concepts and ideas which have been around for decades now. My approach to gaming is to immerse the player into the world, for it to be realistic while possessing a deep and rich element of fantasy. I have many grieviences with MMO\'s out now, as I have tried several and slowly lose interest due to the grind factors among other things. \r\n\r\nMy reasons for being here are as much to do with my dream of seeing a real Tolkien based game make it. One that puts you there in the world and does it outside the box of all previous MMO\'s. (as many of you know I could go on for hours on that). I feel I can add a good strategic vision to development, to consistency and richness that truly follows the visoin J.R.R. put forth on paper. I don\'t know how to program or code and I have no interest in learning, but I do think I know a lot about what adventure is and the kinds of things that make a fantasy world turn and feel real. If that is needed here, then I can help. Will I be able to quit my job at this point? No. Would I consider it? Well that depends on situation of course. Time wise I can put in part time work (daily/evenings) on this and I would consider more if the opportunity presented itself. I envision myself as a guy who dreams up content, helps create details, ensures its fitting to the world and hands it to the techs/programmers and artists so create.. I guess like a director of sorts I suppose... I like to write character histories, adventure stories and world filler as I call it. Middle Earth isn\'t just the names and places its about its richness, the history (lots of that) and what was possible there and not possible. Really all kinds of red flags and lights go up when I see the two ideals coming together, one being J.R.R.T\'s vision and those of the gamer/game designer who want to piggy back on that to pump out a product that is in no way a real representation of the environment/people and places in Middle Earth. I think MEO/LOTRO has failed in holding up the J.R.R.T. end of things at the expense of game and playabilty based upon the EQ2/WoW/SWG/UO MMO standards and current expectations.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(297,'094a0fb8f6','About the Elder Days Project','This is an introduction to the existing members of Arda Online of a parallel project . Four of us who have been playing in a Neverwinter Nights version of Tolkien\'s late Third Age world called Return of Middle Earth (RoME) have begun to develop a First Age version, set in Beleriand. Two of us, Lomion and I, are also with Arda Online and the Elves of Imladris. The other two (and, we hope, a third who has been invited to join) are among the best-informed Tolkienites on RoME. They bring a variety of talents with them--I hope they\'ll introduce themselves.\r\n\r\nWe are aware that NWN 1 is limited and moribund, pending NWN 2. However, we see the current activity, like Arda Online, as an opportunity to hash out some ideas about lore-consistent gameplay and to get practice in the mechanics of module-building. This is, of course, a much smaller project than Arda Online, but I see it as an excellent opportunity to learn, to say nothing of providing a playground for us, where we can test some of our ideas.\r\n\r\nI am therefore inviting Arda Online participants to join with us if they wish and to welcome the RoMEans who--I hope--will be posting here.\r\n\r\nAs for those of you coming in from the Elder Days Project, I encourage you to read the Arda Online fora and that of the host, the Elves of Imladris. I see the potential for some exciting \'cross-fertilization\' among us all.'),(298,'c4a48e3997','','The first few area concepts I have been working on are ready.\r\n\r\nAnd, as an introduction, I am known on Tolkien-related connections as Mithfindel (supposed that I am known). No, I my hair is not grey in real life, the name does come from a gaming character name.\r\n\r\nBackground, related to this project, goes as follows: When NWN came out, I had a few megalomanic module projects going on with its toolset. One of those was a Third Age Middle-earth project. When I got a better Internet connection, and found RoME, this project was abandoned. (Not that the pause caused by armed service wouldn\'t already damaged my progress.) Last summer, I did dig up my old module, scrap little over of 90% of areas, and for fun, did play around with a few possibilities. Also, I mentioned about this to Red_Masque (Karakedi lets me understand that he\'s better known around here as Lomion), but in general, I did this for my own fun, with little progress.\r\n\r\nLast weekend (or was it Monday?) Red - yes, I insist to call him \"Red\" until people shout to me enough to cause a change - asked me to discuss the matter with him and Karakedi. We decided to begin what we christened later as \"Elder Days\" (well, I just happened to register the channel #elder-days in Stratics IRC network). The action will take place in Beleriand, and the area chosen to be built first was East Beleriand.\r\n\r\nCurrently, I have been fiddling around with some technical stuff, as well as game mechanims (or rather, how to get them work as we want) and realizing some ideas of what the areas perhaps will look like.'),(299,'fd2d696466','','Hello everyone, and thanks to Kara for setting up this forum for us all.\r\n\r\nI chose the name \"Fidelio\" for no particular reason other than the fact that it was in reference to a passage from Stanley Kubrick\'s \"Eyes Wide Shut.\" My RoME alter ego was, and still remains, \"Mormegil-\".\r\n\r\nMith, Kara, Lomion (Red), myself and some others have played together on RoME (Return of Middle-Earth) for quite some time now. We spent long hours rping together, and have become good friends inasmuch as one can befriend a virtually constituted Tolkien persona (!). Some of us had informally been discussing creating a First Age mod for some time now, and congratulations to my partners for launching the official kick-off. I, for one, am certainly looking forward to it.\r\n\r\nI\'ve had the chance to peruse through the \"Elves of Imladris\" forums a few times already and was impressed with the overall congeniality, insightfulness, and dedication of the people there. I look forward to your input and \"cross-fertilization,\" as Karakedi put it. Cheers!'),(300,'86d7b1618c','','As a note, there will be a version of the concept areas + a few extras available for viewing on monday evening (21:00 GMT). A DM or two will be around to give those interested a tour.\r\n\r\nTeam: If I have this wrong, please correct me. \r\n\r\nLóm\r\n(Red_)\r\n\r\nM.'),(301,'2fe00f6c06','','You are correct. I will host the alpha version on my desktop when I return home that night. (Yep, in GMT +2 that will be pretty much night.)\r\n\r\nI plan to add a few map notes and placeables telling a bit what is what (though, most things should be easily identified anyway), and navigating around the mod no longer requires a DM. Of course, it is pretty much easier to do with a game master around.\r\n\r\nInformation how to connect later, but this is what is required:\r\n- Neverwinter Nights, newest version (1.66)\r\n- Shadows of Undrentide expansion pack\r\n- Hordes of Underdark expansion pack\r\n\r\nWhat you will be able to do is moving around the areas, which do have the area tiles laid. Placeables, creatures, and further interaction will not fit in as fast as Monday, though a few a bit more critical NPCs and conversations do have placeholders in (though, the functionality is still partial).\r\n\r\nDepending how fast Red and Morm (i.e. Lomion and Fidelio) get their parts, we might even get to see a few NPC and monster concepts. If lucky. If. Very. Lucky.'),(302,'3b2aa12381','Elder Days - area plan','Original area plan: (FA 456)\r\n\r\nModel entry:\r\n[quote:3b2aa12381]Area:\r\nRegion - Area name (Tileset type, dominant faction, possible additional information)\r\nAccess:\r\nDirection: Other area (additional information)[/quote:3b2aa12381]\r\n\r\n[quote:3b2aa12381]Area:\r\nDoriath - Menegroth (Castle Interior, Doriathin)\r\nAccess:\r\nExit: Doriath - Region\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nDoriath - Region (Forest, Doriathin)\r\nAccess:\r\nNorthwest: Doriath - Neldoreth (over River Esgalduin, bridge near Menegroth, inactive)\r\nNorth: Nan Dungortheb - Dor Dínen (inactive)\r\nEast: Himlad - South (Over River Aros)\r\nWest: Doriath - Amon Rûdh (Over R. Sirion, inactive)\r\nSouth: East Beleriand - South of Doriath (Over R. Aros)\r\nEntrance: Doriath - Menegroth\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nHimlad - South (Rural, Feanorian, abandoned)\r\nAccess:\r\nWest: Doriath - Region (Over R. Aros)\r\nNorth: Himlad - North (inactive)\r\nEast: East Beleriand - Estolad\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nEast Beleriand - South of Doriath (Rural, neutral)\r\nAccess:\r\nWest: Fens of Sirion - Aelin-Uial (inactive)\r\nEast: East Beleriand - South of Estolad\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nEast Beleriand - Estolad (Rural, Edainic)\r\nAccess:\r\nWest: Himlad - South\r\nNorth: Nan Elmoth - Dark Forest (inactive)\r\nSouth: East Beleriand - South of Estolad\r\nEast: Thargelion - North (via bridge)\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nEast Beleriand - Realm of Amrod and Amras (Rural, Feanorian)\r\nAccess:\r\nWest: East Beleriand - South of Doriath\r\nNorth: East Beleriand - Estolad\r\nEast: Thargelion - South (via Dwarf Road)\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nThargelion - North (Rural, Feanorian, abandoned)\r\nAccess:\r\nWest: East Beleriand - Estolad (via bridge)\r\nNorth: March of Maedhros - East (inactive)\r\nSouth: Thargelion - South\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nThargelion - South (Rural, Feanorian)\r\nAccess:\r\nWest: East Beleriand - Realm of Amrod and Amras (via Dwarf Road)\r\nSouth: Ossiriand (over R. Ascar, inactive)\r\nEast: Ered Luin - The Blue Mountains (via Dwarf Road)\r\nNorth: Thargelion - North\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nEred Luin - The Blue Mountains (Rural Winter, Dwarven)\r\nAccess:\r\nWest: Thargelion - South (via Dwarf Road)\r\nEntrance: Ered Luin - Mount Dolmed (abandoned)\r\nEntrance: Ered Luin - Belegost\r\nEntrance: Ered Luin - Nogrod\r\n\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nEred Luin - Belegost (Castle Interior, Dwarven)\r\nAccess:\r\nExit: Ered Luin - The Blue Mountains\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nEred Luin - Nogrod (Ruins, Dwarven)\r\nAccess:\r\nExit: Ered Luin - The Blue Mountains[/quote:3b2aa12381]\r\n\r\nEnhanced & expanded version later.'),(303,'3f6127becc','IRC Channel','For real-time discussion, the preferred way is joining our IRC channel.\r\n\r\nThe network used is Stratics, accessable by command \"/server irc.stratics.com\" in your IRC client or by directly connecting into one of the following servers:\r\n\r\n* irc.epaxsys.net - USA - Colorado\r\n* stratics.frws.com - USA - Colorado\r\n* stratics.afraidyet.net - USA - Dallas\r\n* irc.glowfish.de - EU - Germany\r\n\r\nFor direct connect, the command in your IRC client of choice is \"/conn [insert server name here] 7000\".\r\n\r\nAs the client I suggest Gaim, which can also handle several instant messaging protocols. Gaim is available from [url]http://gaim.sourceforge.net/[/url], and is free (actually, open source).\r\n\r\nYou can use IRC with Gaim followingly (I am using a Finnish version, so the translation of the names might not be quite exact):\r\n\r\nFrom Buddy List window, choose \"Tools->User Accounts (Ctrl+A)\". (Might be \"Account Editor\")\r\nClick \"Add\" button\r\nChoose protocol \"IRC\" from the drop-down list.\r\nInsert wanted nick as the screen name.\r\nInsert server name \"irc.stratics.com\" or one of the four specific servers above.\r\nLeave password blank.\r\n(You may choose an alias, but not necessary.)\r\nCheck \"Automatical login\" if you want to log in IRC immediately when Gaim loads.\r\nClick \"Show additional options\" (Might also be \"Advanced\": The text immediately above the \"Cancel\" button.)\r\nThe default port is \"6667\". Replace this with \"7000\".\r\nInsert a user name.\r\n(You may optionally insert a real name.)\r\n\r\nCheck that everything is correct, and click \"Save\".\r\n\r\nNow, you should see YourChosenNick@irc.stratics.com (or what server you chose) to appear on your accounts list. Make sure the box \"On-line\" is checked, and you log in.\r\n\r\nLogging in may take a while, as the server does a few checks on the connection. (Your firewall may warn about port scans - don\'t worry, this is ok.) Once you are logged in (having three tabs open in a window titled with the name of the server you connected) you can join the channel by typing \"/join #elder-days\".\r\n\r\nYou may add this discussion to your buddy list by - once in - choosing \"Conversation->Add...\" and then clicking \"Add\" button on the window that pops up. This will add it to your Buddy list. Going further, you may want even to set the channel to be automatically joined on login by right-clicking the entry in the buddy list, and checking \"Log in automatically\".\r\n\r\nThat\'s it. You may use other clients, as well - just remember that Stratics does not connect to port 6667, but to 7000 instead.'),(304,'8471ca681c','','Personally I use mIRC, just ignore the little message about registering...\r\n\r\nRed_'),(305,'71f2940f12','','Great work, and excellent documentation, Mith!\r\n\r\nI believe that mormegil (Fidelio) has been working on Nargothrond, too.'),(306,'a3f8618618','','I suggest that if there are IRC conversations of general interest to the whole team, that they be copied and posted here.'),(307,'392cb72f15','','Here follows a list of the areas I have begun doing work on:\r\n\r\n[quote:392cb72f15]\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nAmon Rûdh and the Western Bed of the Teiglin (rural, petty dwarves, will contain a mid level dungeon)\r\n\r\nAccess:\r\nEast: Doriath\r\nNorth: Forest of Brethil\r\nWest: Talath Dirnen\r\nSouth: Fens of Sirion (inactive)\r\n\r\nArea:\r\n\r\nTalath Dirnen (rural, Nargothrondrim, possible quests)\r\n\r\nAccess:\r\nEast: Amon Rûdh\r\nWest: Taur-en-Faroth\r\nSouth: Western Andram (inactive)\r\nNorth: Crossings of the Teiglin\r\n\r\nArea:\r\n\r\nCrossings of the Teiglin (rural, men of Brethil)\r\nEast: Forest of Brethil\r\nNorth: Ivrin and the Ered Wethrin\r\nSouth: Talath Dirnen\r\nWest: Tumlahad\r\n\r\nArea:\r\n\r\nTaur-en-Faroth (rural, Nargothrondrim, possible low level quest)\r\nAccess:\r\nEast: Talath Dirnen\r\nWest: mountains and West Beleriand (inactive)\r\nSouth: West Beleriand and Arvernien (inactive)\r\nNorth: West Beleriand and River Ginglith (inactive)\r\n\r\nArea: \r\n\r\nNargothrond: (ruins, Nargothrondrim, quests and starting location)\r\nTransitions to: \r\nTaur-en-Faroth:\r\nNargothrond: the Halls of Finrod (castle interior, Nargothrondrim)\r\n[/quote:392cb72f15]'),(308,'1d85489e84','Race concepts','This could partially go to Items as well, but decided to post it here. Now, let\'s have a look what our races would be like.\r\n\r\nELVES\r\n\r\nNoldor\r\n- Faction Fingolfin (Hithlum, Mithrim)\r\n- Faction Finarfin (Nargothrond)\r\n- Faction Feanor (March of Maeghros, Himlad, Thargelion, all over the place)\r\nFocus: Weaponsmiths\r\nBonus: Start at higher level\r\n\r\nÚmanyar\r\n- Faction Doriath and Falas: Fair weaponsmiths and armor, good bows\r\n- Faction Laiquendi (incl. Avari in this case): Stealth\r\nBonus: Start at higher level\r\n\r\nMORTAL MEN\r\n\r\nEdain\r\n- \"High Men\", a notch better than other men. Two notches more enemies.\r\n- Bonus: Start at higher level\r\n\r\nBor: Good Easterlings\r\nUlfang: Hideous Easterlings\r\n\r\nMen, in general, are average, perhaps even more average than other races. They don\'t really specialize in anything (save trading and being friends with anyone else who wants to be their friend). They also have less tough penalties when badly wounded (\"dead\") than the other, older races.\r\n\r\nDWARVES\r\n\r\nDurin (NPC only)\r\nBelegost (Your friendly Dwarves)\r\nNogrod (Your a bit more xenophobic Dwarves)\r\n- Superior armor\r\n- Bonus: Start at higher level\r\n\r\nPetty Dwarves (NPC only, scum of the earth. Well, at least they\'ve been driven almost extinct by others. Use \"Gnome\" model.)\r\n\r\nORCS\r\n\r\nTough, and not that stupid at all. But, they argue and fight all the time. They will use means (and equipment) that are crude and lack finesse, but are ruthlessly efficient anyway.\r\n\r\n---\r\n\r\nSo, what did I forget? Something to note? Feel free to correct.'),(309,'9feb5a8966','','Sounds good to me. In order not to encourage too much of an \"eldarcentric\" universe (though it was in many ways), one possibility might be to add further distinctions for those who choose the race of men.\r\n\r\nExample:\r\n\r\n(1) House of Hador of Dor-Lomin (more \"bash and smash\")\r\n(2) House of Haleth of Brethil (more stealth-oriented)\r\n(3) Mercenaries/outlaws/bad boys'),(310,'9c45f47150','','Actually, I did forget that part.\r\n\r\nSo, how it should be:\r\n\r\nThree Houses of Edain (In NWN, modelled as \"half-elves\"):\r\n- Beör (Outlaws in Dorthonion and Ladros, may be difficult to get in before release, or even before expansion of the areas. Hence, they\'d start as refugees in Dor-Lómin.)\r\n- Haleth (Brethil)\r\n- Hador (Dor-Lómin)\r\n\r\nOther men:\r\n- Easterlings (Bor)\r\n- Easterlings (Ulfang)\r\n- Estolad (and wild men)'),(311,'91ca2f73da','','[quote:91ca2f73da=\"Eric\"]Why are you calling them kinships?\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA[/quote:91ca2f73da]\r\n\r\nI think LRO has something to do with that ;)\r\n\r\nWhat do you suggest? Fellowship / guild / ...'),(312,'22aedbfdf0','','Some other skills i\'ve been thinking of :\r\n\r\nno armor (I know you categorized cloth and soft leather in light armor, but cloth isn\'t exactly armor IMO)\r\nblocking (shield / sword / bodyparts / ...)\r\ndodging (this could be counted with blocking / acrobatics)\r\n\r\ndreaming/visions \r\nsocial skills (taunting, praising, lying, charismatic things, leadership, ...)\r\npathfinding'),(313,'57b240372f','','To bring in comparison to another competitive multiplayer game: Guild Wars.\r\n\r\nIt does have the abbreviated guild name (\"tag\" appear next to guild members\' name, e.g. \"Alcarwe Elcanion [OCA]\". Then, guild symbols are displayed on the PC\'s cloak. (Those PCs who are not in a guild do not have a cloak, either.)\r\n\r\nBasically the same as the tabard idea, with the exception that the armor underneath is better visible.'),(314,'b6959d7d42','Mj\'s export company.','Is now open for business.\r\n\r\nTodays shipment, destination: Lappeenranta.\r\n\r\nInventory:\r\n\r\n(clothing)\r\nDwarven clothing\r\nFine dwarven clothing\r\nSindarin robes\r\nFine sindarin robes\r\n\r\n(helmets)\r\nMerengroth guard helm\r\nBattered sindarin helm\r\nSindarin helm\r\nBattered dwarven helm\r\nDwarven helm\r\nSuperior [Quality] dwarven helm\r\n\r\n(light armour)\r\nBattered sindarin leather [studded]\r\nSindarin leather [studded]\r\n\r\n(medium armour)\r\nSindarin chain\r\nBattered dwarven chain\r\nDwarven chain\r\nSuperior [Quality] dwarven chain.\r\n\r\n(heavy armour)\r\nMerengroth guard heavy chain\r\n\r\n(axes)\r\nBattered dwarven battle axe\r\nDwarven battleaxe\r\nSuperior [Quality] dwarven battleaxe\r\nBattered dwarven handaxe\r\nDwarven handaxe\r\nSuperior [Quality] dwarven handaxe\r\n\r\n(shortswords)\r\nBattered sindarin shortsword\r\nSindarin shortsword\r\n\r\n(polearms)\r\nBattered dwarven staff\r\nDwarven staff\r\nsuperior [Quality] dwarven staff\r\n\r\n(longbows)\r\nBattered sindarin longbow\r\nSindarin longbow\r\n\r\nWill be available in the mod for viewing shortly. Comments welcomed.\r\n\r\nLóm\r\n(Red_)'),(315,'fd3f44ec97','Item names','Kara, I need you to employ your language skills if you have time. I like to name weapons, items etc in Tolkein\'s languages (e.g. sindarin for sindar, quenya for noldor), but I don\'t have your talent for them. I need a list of names such as \'shortsword\', \'longsword\', \'spear\'.. you get the idea. \r\n\r\nAlso a few names for high level items (for example, Calaruth) would go down nicely.\r\n\r\nThanks alot,\r\n\r\nM'),(316,'a42c9e4039','Power level','Related: Item Design\r\n\r\nStarting levels:\r\nMen (other than Edain): 1\r\nEdain: 2 (Laiquendi?)\r\nDwarves, Sindar: 3\r\nNoldor: 4\r\n\r\nLevel cap: 30\r\n\r\nDiscussed with Mike of the item power levels:\r\n\r\nCraftable: 1 - 16 (actually, useless to make lv1 craftables, this would be 5 - 16), possibly some special stuff over the limit. Possibly. I\'d personally like that all craftables would be sellable.\r\n\r\nQuest items: 1 - 21 (and, as well, useless to have those below lv5)\r\n\r\nNPC items: 1 - 26 (for refrence, vorpal sword with maximum allowed DC, i.e. all-slaying sword, is lv 26)\r\n\r\nAgain, personally, while the mod certainly is of higher level than what I originally designed to make (but, that was Third Age, level cap 20), but still, we need to decide upon where we want to concentrate, what levels. If we wish to make it near-epic, I suggest we raise the starting levels a bit. Or, if we keep starting levels as-is, we might as well drop the level cap to 24.\r\n\r\n(Please) Discuss,\r\n\r\nJ'),(317,'ddb2edb356','','Hum, I\'ve already argued about the high-level craftables, but if you want them salable, we\'ll have them saleable. Though that means faction-specific would be quest only? Not sure we want that, personally. \r\n\r\nI would suggest these starting levels (with a cap of 30, no more than 15 caster):\r\n\r\nMen (wildmen, easterlings) :1\r\nEdain: 2\r\nDwarves/ Laiquendi: 3\r\nSindar: 4\r\nNoldor: 5\r\n\r\nI prefer to have more \'epic\' levels.. mainly because I\'ve been working on the premise that we\'re going to level 30, and I\'d have to fiddle with item levels a bit... (yes, I\'m lazy)\r\n\r\nM'),(318,'34e171f0ef','','Good job!\r\n\r\nIf you have the time or inclination, Red, I\'d like to start populating the people of Finrod. And they will be needing clothes, and more!\r\n\r\nHere\'s a sketchy version of what I thought might be good to have:\r\n\r\n[b:34e171f0ef]Citizens and general population:[/b:34e171f0ef] some basic robe item, basic weapon type.\r\n\r\n[b:34e171f0ef]Soldiery:[/b:34e171f0ef]\r\n\r\n-- Nargothrond rangers: good bows, but even better, great stealth equipment in the form of cloaks and such; items to boost spot and listen skills.\r\n\r\n-- Nargothrond melee warriors (I called them \"Watchers\" for the time being): excellent plate and/or chain, longswords; possibly amulets. Possible superior items for the elite honour guard (loved the Menegroth throne guard items, btw).\r\n\r\n[b:34e171f0ef]Unique items:[/b:34e171f0ef]\r\nFinrod, it is written, had the greatest treasure trove of items brought over from Tirion. So there are manifold possibilities. Also had the second greatest smith of the Elves, Celebrimbor, hanging out in his halls. \r\n\r\nBasically some mid-to-high level gear that could be given out as quest rewards. Given the slightly less militaristic inclination of Finrod\'s people, however, some of the focus might be on items other than weapons.'),(319,'c1756f7167','NPC design','Just to make sure we are on same wavelength, here is how I propose we save Npc files: (creator initials)_(race)_(faction)_(creature name)_(difficulty). Abbreviations are fine. \r\n\r\nIt is also my understanding that whomever is building an area also has responsibility for designing the NPCs there. Please confirm, Mith, if you\'re fine with this.\r\n\r\nAlso on a similar note, I just thought I\'d propose what I thought were reasonable high level npc level ranges. This is what I was thinking for instance, as concerns Nargothrond:\r\n\r\nFinrod: (lvl 55, bard/warrior)\r\nCelebrimbor: (lvl 40, warrior/sorc)\r\nCelegorm: (lvl 45 warrior somethingorother)\r\nCurufin: (lvl 45 rogue warrior)\r\nOrodreth: (lvl 40-45 pally fighter)\r\nHigh Commander of the Rangers: (lvl 25 ranger/SD)\r\n\r\nI am proposing these as benchmarks. Comparing her to Finrod, for example, Melian would have to be above lvl 55. Let me know what you think.'),(320,'1d99bcf97a','','I would say Finrod was 50, if Melian was 55. Though I was vagualy thinking of capping all NPCs at 40. Hadn\'t really got around to discussing it, yet.\r\n\r\nA \'high commander\' of the rangers should be about level 30- 35 on your scale. Level 25 is more \'captain\', in my [i:1d99bcf97a]humble[/i:1d99bcf97a] opinion.\r\n\r\nM'),(321,'f5efd409bf','','I am fine with either proposition as far as starting levels are concerned, as long as all races are reasonably balanced in some way or other.\r\n\r\nI agree the level cap should be set to 30. This allows players to become satisfactorily powerful, without being so powerful as to start thinking they can start playing pushover with the major npcs.\r\n\r\nHowever, I am of the firm conviction that \"power\" should not be strictly a function of lvl, but also of reputation. As such, players could be capped at lvl 24 until they accomplish some major quest. Also, the henchmen idea comes to mind. \r\n\r\nPeople are highly motivated by social promotion. We all love badges, titles of honour, and reputation. I think we could take advantage of that\r\nproviding this does not become a scripting nightmare.'),(322,'492a236cde','','I agree with the high commander comment.\r\n\r\nIf players can level up to 30 (or even 24), then capping major Npcs at lvl 40 is unrealistic in my opinion. \r\n\r\nWe are, after all, dealing with some serious badasses. Finrod would not have been able to contend, in song admittedly, with Thauron had he not been some very serious opposition.\r\n\r\nTo further put this into perspective, remember also that Fingolfin did go head-to-head in single combat with the greatest of the Valar, and managed to wound him ere his demise.'),(323,'1e25ad27ad','','Ok, I can probably run this project alongside getting basic noldor items ready. You never know, might even get some correlation between them...\r\n\r\nBasic robes/ weapons are easy enough. I\'ll do you a shortword version of the noldor longsword (cut rate, obviously...) for your citizens. I\'ll even chuck in some fine robes for your upper classes!\r\n\r\nBear in mind when making your stealthers that only laiquendi get HiPS. Can you provide me with evidence that they were stealth fanatics? I know they \'waged war in secret\' but that doesn\'t necessarily mean hiding in the bushes. Ideally I\'d like to reserve such items for grey/green elves and soft-slippered goblins. But If I can\'t, I can\'t. \r\n\r\nYou may get an upgraded version of a noldorin bow for your rangers, as they\'re rather special.\r\n\r\nMelee warriors will have modified noldorin gear. You won\'t get plate. It doesn\'t exist. Well, except maybe in the form of orcish walking junkpiles. Heavy chain or just chain? (Dex bonus +2 and +4 respectively) Elite honour guard items are a distinct possibility - what do you want them to do, exactly? (I mean, are they going to be armoured spellcasters, for example?)\r\n\r\nGot some ideas for unique items, but not sure if they\'re what you had in mind. Please be a tad more specific, or leave it up to me entirely and I\'ll see what I come up with.\r\n\r\nETP (Estimated time of production): 11 days \r\n\r\nSorry dude, I\'m back to school tomorrow, so I don\'t know how much work I\'ll have. If I have less than I expect, then they\'ll arive sooner.\r\n\r\nThank you, your order has been registered. Have a nice day.\r\n\r\nM'),(324,'8c780cd0ea','','Ok, fair point. level 60 cap for major NPCs? After all, we\'re only playing minor nobles/ captains and would not be anywhere near as powerful as said High King.. \r\n\r\nJ & K: please forget D&D descriptions of the levels. In this world, level 40 is [i:8c780cd0ea]not[/i:8c780cd0ea] demi-god status. At least, not if I have my way.\r\n\r\n[quote:8c780cd0ea]the greatest of the Valar,[/quote:8c780cd0ea]\r\n\r\nTrying to tell us something? I don\'t believe he ever went head-to-head with Manwe....\r\n\r\nM'),(325,'6c0b544ecd','','As your starting level gets higher, then so do your penalties for dying. Among other things. I agree, there should be some mechanism to \'unlock\' the higher levels.. maybe a promotion to a certain rank? Though eventually we would all be running around as \'Baron this\' or \'captain that\'.. which, while amusing, is not so realistic...\r\n\r\nI\'d like to avoid hencemen, on the basis that 30+ players each with a personal following could get a bit messy. And will play hell with my pc.\r\n\r\nHowever, social climbing (as we discussed earlier Morm) sounds very interesting. It would also provide an alternative route of advancement (between fighting and crafting). Perhaps lots of diplomatic quests are in order? Would make investment in persuade, intimidate and bluff actually worthwhile for once. Oh, and perform. I love that skill..\r\n\r\nM'),(326,'5164faa4dc','','Great. Sorry, by the way, if you were under the impression that I required expediency in any shape or form. No one is in a position to exact anything from anyone else, as far as I\'m concerned. We are all doing this on the side, so take whatever time you have :wink: \r\n\r\nNarg Rangers and Hips comment: agreed, no hips\r\n\r\nArmour: I wasn\'t sure whether we were going to respect the premisse that there is no such thing as plate in Tolkien, but now that I know that we are, all I can say is hurray.\r\n\r\nNargothrond melee warriors: full chainmail (heavy) as opposed to chain shirt. The elite guard will probably be paladins, as I like high eldarin warriors to have some limited spellcasting abilities. They will rarely be seen outside the halls themselves, as their concern is not stealth but rather to pack a mean punch.\r\n\r\nAs for unique items, I leave it up entirely to you. Designing those, at this point, is secondary. I might throw in some ideas when I have the time.'),(327,'68b7e17cff','','Melian is a Maia. She is *way* beyond even Finrod. She should be comparable to Sauron in her own way, though probably with strengths in different domains. Sauron is a necromancer; Melian might be a wizard plus somthing with divine magic. As for levels, there should be a difference of at least 10 points between her and the best of the Eldar. Even that represents a compression.\r\n\r\nIf Morgoth is in the game, he should exceed Melian substantially in level.'),(328,'797b1a343d','','Diplomatic quests: good. Social promotion: promising if it doesn\'t become silly.\r\n\r\nWhy would the different branches of the elves start at different levels and thus have greater or lesser penalties for dying? If you want the Noldor to be more than the Sindar, who are more than the Laiquendi, give different amounts of skill slots to distribute.'),(329,'616404e2d8','','Skill points are hard-coded, so that cannot be changed.\r\n\r\nThe reason why different branches of Eldar would be of different power would be because of their different level of technological and other advances.\r\n\r\nCertainly, those who have been in the Blessed Realm, or do bear the heritage of those who have been there, are not on the same line with the Dark Elves.\r\n\r\nSindar, in turn, have benefited from Melian\'s presence.\r\n\r\nAlso, there was some consideration about allowing the shy and stealthy Laiquendi to be the sole race to access Hide in Plain Sight feat (i.e. Shadowdancer class).\r\n\r\nThis same thing is done another way in MERP: the elves were more powerful than other races, but had less \"background points\" due to being more tied to the fate of Arda. (However, this is not that easily doable - I may fiddle a bit with some subrace properties, but not indefinately due to limitations posed by the game engine.)\r\n\r\nAlso, social promotion does not necessarily mean being a lord of some area. We could have a few lines, like warrior and loremaster, where your reputation would grow.\r\n\r\nThe warrior line could start from being a simple rookie, trooper, warrior, esquire (ohtar, fully trained warrior not yet named a knight) and knight (roquen).\r\n\r\nLoremaster line could start from novices, advancing to apprentices, wise-men (gollor), and to the masters of the field etc.'),(330,'97436891de','','I would not find any use to bring Morgoth into play. The only instance he\'d personally appear was after Dagor Bragollach, dueling with Fingolfin. And that\'s already past in the time chosen to start.\r\n\r\nI would, personally, cap NPCs of playable races to 40. Remember, equipment is the half of the build, and while I do in general oppose high-level equipment, unique items used by greater-than-life NPCs could be the sole exception I don\'t take the \"over my dead body\" stance against. (Someone might add a smiley here, I don\'t.)\r\n\r\nIf players, who are supposed to be great heroes of their races, specially if the higher levels are restricted by a quest, could well be equal to tougher guards, and certainly higher-level than your rank-and-file NPCs.\r\n\r\nAnd what gets beoynd the reach of our players becomes unneeded. We don\'t need to have Finrod\'s Guard lv40, Finrod lv50, Sauron lv50, Eonwë lv60, Manwë lv70 (um, NWN does not any more allow NPCs up to that, but that\'s be doable on an earlier version), because to players, everything they cannot beat is simply \"impossible to beat\", and to players, the power difference between two creatures which both are \"impossible\" to the players does not bear any use. If we really want a plot creature not beatable, we need to be careful on placement, and place \"immortal\" or even \"invulnerable\" flags. NPCs that cannot die and the PCs will not fight could as well be lv1 and tagged \"invulnerable\", and they still could fulfill their role.\r\n\r\n---\r\n\r\nAlso, naming conventions: Remember, while the tags can be long, each ResRef must be unique, and it is not allowed to be that long!\r\n\r\nSo, (creator initials)_(faction)_(name)(additional, if needed) will do fine.\r\n\r\nFor example: jr_fea_guard1 for a Feanorian Guard made by me.\r\n\r\nI\'ll post the available factions in the mod right now when I get home. If you need additional factions, just note. (This needs its own thread, though.)'),(331,'c4105bd6ec','','Lómion: NWN toolset, at the current version, cannot create higher than lv60 NPCs.\r\n\r\nAnd anyway, while we do plan to portray the epic Elder Days, it does not mean we have to go to high magic from the beginning. If we spam on power, making being powerful common, power does lose its meaning.'),(332,'317228d9e1','Please, remember to log in','...or, if you do not log in, at least supply a user name.\r\n\r\nAlternatively, Karakedi: Make posting possible only after logged in?'),(333,'8c5c4918e5','','I must say, I\'m awaiting this with great anticipation....\r\nI love First Age things.\r\nI am most intrigued with this project.'),(334,'3abccbc64b','Available factions','Format: Faction (suggested abbreviation) - who they are\r\n\r\n(Leaving standard factions out - do not use them, if you do not need to!)\r\n\r\nFingolfin (eln) - Noldor of Hithlum and Mithrim, ruled by Fingon (possible default Noldo) (Also Gondolin, but will not likely make it to play)\r\nFeanor (elc) - Sons of Fëanor and their followers, ruled by Maedhros\r\nFinarfin (ela) - Noldor of Nargothrond and Gondolin, ruled by Finarfin, Orodreth (possible default Noldo)\r\nDoriath (eld) - Sindar of Doriath, ruled by Thingol and Melian (default elf)\r\nFalas (elf) - Sindar of Falas, ruled by Círdan\r\nLaiquendi (elg) - Green Elves and Avari, living on their own in their hidden places.\r\nBelegost (dwb) - Dwarves of Belegost (Gabilgathol) (default dwarf)\r\nNogrod (dwn) - Dwarves of Nogrod (Tumunzahar)\r\nDurin (dwd) - Dwarves of Moria (Khazad-dum), keep them rare, since they don\'t live around here - merchants and the like\r\nPetty Dwarves (dwp) - Mîm and the like, smaller roguish Dwarves who everyone despises\r\nBor (hub) - Your friendly good Easterling\r\nUlfang (huu) - Your unfriendly bad Easterling\r\nEstolad (hue) - Those Men who still linger around Estolad\r\nAngband (ang) - Henchmen of Morgoth\r\nAnimal (ani) - Animals\r\nNeutral (neu) - If you need an NPC/thing neutral to all\r\nVoice ( ) - For the DMFI Voice NPC. Do not use. No. Do. Not. Use.\r\nGood NPC (good) - For good NPCs not doable with other factions, like prisoners. Will not attack or be attacked by evils, will be protected by good.\r\nEvil NPC (evil) - The opposite of \"Good NPC\"\r\nValinor (val) - In case we need a random member of Ainur to drop in.\r\nWild Men (huw) - Those men not Edain, and not of Estolad\r\nBandits (ban) - Your friendly bandits hostile to everyone else and their dog. Well, not the dog. They\'re neutral towards animals. Yes, they really think that those deer are cute.\r\nHouse of Bëor (ed1) - Edain in Dor-Lómin\r\nHouse of Haleth (ed2) - Edain in Brethil\r\nHouse of Hador (ed3) - Edain in Ladros and Dorthonion\r\n\r\nIf you need a faction to be added, just mention me.'),(335,'e93364ed06','','All users can still read posts. You must now be registered (i.e., logged in) to post, edit, or delete.'),(336,'108943f6ea','','In retrospect, I agree with Mith, entirely.\r\n\r\nLast night I took some time and started generating some NPCs off the scratch to experiment with what things might look like. I populated the Halls of Finrod with: Finrod (lvl 50), Celegorm (lvl 45), Curufin (lvl 40), Edrahil (lvl 30), Gwindor (lvl 30), Orodreth (who should be in Tol Sirion, but lvl 45), Huan (lvl 45), Finduilas (lvl 20), 5 to 6 elite guards (lvl 30), Celebrimbor (lvl 35-40)... All of these in the same room ...You get the picture... \r\n\r\nMy main rationale at the time was that lvl cap was irrelevant since characters are characters, and that their level should refllect [i:108943f6ea]who[/i:108943f6ea] they were (i.e. far beyond the pale of any playable PC). \r\n\r\nAnyhow, scanning over this glorious roster of heroes, things were looking a tad sad, if not ridiculous. Just like Mith said, power lost all its sense. It further gave the impression that players would be evolving in a world where they would perpetually be dwarfed by giants. Even worse, it was vaguely suggestive of a power-gaming mentality, whereby gaining levels was all that mattered. \r\n\r\nSubsequent to the above reflection I also began wondering whether we should really be keeping the level cap at 30. \r\n\r\nRemember RoME: has raising the lvl cap to 30 really increased enjoyment of the mod for players? Answer: no. In fact, it may have done quite the opposite, scaring off those players who were not-so-competent gamers, and who couldn\'t leave Imladris to go garlic-picking without being in fear of getting jumped by a Mordor Uruk Captain. \r\n\r\nAgain, the question we should keep in mind is: \"Who is our audience? What is their definition of enjoyment? What makes a mod \"epic\"? Does it have anything to do with having a higher level cap\"?\" \r\n\r\nCertainly a problem some mods have is that that they attempt to cater to too many audiences. If you try to please both the rping and the powergaming crowds, in general you end up pleasing neither of them.\r\n\r\nI\'m suggesting the following as a starter:\r\n\r\nPc cap: 24\r\nNpc cap: 40\r\n\r\nAlso note that it is much easier to have the mod move from a 24th to a 30th lvl cap, than it is to downgrade from 30 to 24. The latter just plays negatively on player expectations.'),(338,'e96267e840','','Looks good.\r\nof course, Finarfin never went to Beleriand, so it would be Finrod, if I\'m to nitpick.'),(339,'44cc02db18','','Good point, Andy. \r\n\r\nAlso you included Turgon in the faction of Finarfin (Finrod). My sense is that he would be in faction Fingolfin, though perhaps you had some rationale for this.'),(340,'465f48d20b','','Fidelio: Whoops.\r\n\r\nAnd, the elven factions were named so for a reason. Bonus point for the one who figures out where the letters in \"elg, elc, ela\" come from.\r\n\r\nAlso, those are internal. DMs get to see those, but no player, ever, sees the faction names ingame.\r\n\r\nSo, Fingolfin would stand for the House of Fingolfin, and others of the same kin, despite that Fingolfin\'s dead. Feanor is for the House of Fëanor, despite Fëanor\'s dead. Finarfin stands for House of Finarfin, despite Arafinwë never came to Middle-earth. (And, as such, he likely didn\'t even know that he was called Finarfin, until his son Finderáto told him after being reincarnated in Aman.)'),(341,'27ca727e3f','','[b:27ca727e3f]El[/b:27ca727e3f]f- Fin[b:27ca727e3f]g[/b:27ca727e3f]olfin\r\n\r\n[b:27ca727e3f]El[/b:27ca727e3f]f -[b:27ca727e3f]C[/b:27ca727e3f]urufinwe\r\n\r\nand \r\n\r\n[b:27ca727e3f]El[/b:27ca727e3f]f -[b:27ca727e3f]A[/b:27ca727e3f]rafinwe , presumably. Ok, so the first one should logically be Fingolfin\'s quenya name, but I\'m too lazy to look that one up.\r\n\r\n\r\nOT : We seem to be missing \'Falas\' still.\r\n\r\nM'),(342,'6349ed90a2','','Initiated designs of the following:\r\n\r\n[quote:6349ed90a2] Area: \r\nThe Forest of Brethil (forest, Haladin (Edain), possible quest location related to Haudh-en-Arwen)\r\n\r\nAccess: \r\nEast: \r\nNorth: Northern Brethil + possibly small bandit area \r\nWest: Northern Talath Dirnen\r\nSouth: Amon Rudh and the Western Teiglin (inactive) \r\n\r\nArea: \r\nNorthern Brethil and Amon Obel (rural with lots of forest, Haladin, possible quest) \r\n\r\nAccess: \r\nEast: Dimbar (inactive)\r\nWest: Northern Talath Dirnen and Crossings of the Teiglin\r\nSouth: Forest of Brethil\r\nNorth: To Tol Sirion and the Ered Wethrin\r\n\r\n\r\nArea:\r\nBar-en-Danwedh - The House of Ransom (cave, petty dwarf, quest area)\r\n\r\nAccess:\r\nEntrance Exit: Amon Rudh and the Western Bed of the Teiglin River[/quote:6349ed90a2]\r\n\r\n\r\nAddendum:\r\n\r\n[quote:6349ed90a2]Area:\r\nDimbar: (rural w/mountains, Doriathin (?))\r\nWest: to North Brethil\r\nEast: The Forest of Neldoreth (possibly Nan Dungortheb, depending on how we map the transitions)\r\n\r\nArea: \r\nGlade of the Kinslayers: (forest, feanorian, quest area)\r\nEntrance and Exit: Amon Rudh map (in a hidden corner)[/quote:6349ed90a2]'),(343,'1874b4a9b5','','I\'d put the access to Doriath into the Amon Rudh area. Hence, from Brethil you couldn\'t actually access east.\r\n\r\nFrom Northern Brethil, you could get east to Dimbar?'),(345,'0fab45c7d4','','Ngolofinwë, or on modern Quenya, Nolofinwë. And yes, that was another slip. Suggested change: Fingolfin (eln). \"elg\" is in use for Laiquendi (Green Elves).\r\n\r\nBut, to the topic:\r\n\r\nI am preparing to apply the subrace scripts.\r\n\r\nAny suggestions of the properties of the different factions and/or subraces? I will likely make my own once I have tested this a bit.\r\n\r\nAlso checking the possibility to use Item Level Restrictions as a script, instead of the default system, hence allowing a bit more free design.\r\n\r\nWhat I am going to use as a basis of my work is this:\r\nhttp://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Scripts.Detail&id=2603\r\n\r\nExpect heavy modification. (I have already coded out the D&D races that came with the package, and next checking how I can force the usage of subraces using the extended character creation system I had in mind.)'),(346,'30ae0ee4bf','','[quote:30ae0ee4bf]From Northern Brethil, you could get east to Dimbar?[/quote:30ae0ee4bf]\r\n\r\nYou could get into Dimbar via the Brithiach, fords that bridged the Sirion from east to west. I currently made it so that the Brithiach would to be just beyond the northern fringe of Brethil. \r\n\r\n[quote:30ae0ee4bf]I\'d put the access to Doriath into the Amon Rudh area. Hence, from Brethil you couldn\'t actually access east. [/quote:30ae0ee4bf]\r\n\r\nWill do.'),(347,'f36436892f','','[quote:f36436892f]I\'m suggesting the following as a starter: \r\n\r\nPc cap: 24 \r\nNpc cap: 40 [/quote:f36436892f]\r\n\r\nWould be good to get some feedback on this, as it influences NPC and creature design. Not to mention that re-designing Npcs and creatures is a waste of time I\'d rather avoid.'),(348,'95cc9d9893','','As mentioned, by starting at a cap of 24, we\'d have still space to raise the cap later.\r\n\r\nI do like that. Players up to 24, possibly at a later phase up to 30 as the end comes closer, and NPCs up to 40.'),(349,'72616c1f43','FTP server','I did set up an FTP server on my former system I found laying on the corner. I think it is much more useful to share files that way, than e-mail or MSN.\r\n\r\nAsk me for username and password.\r\n\r\nAlso, it is possible that I\'ve made typos when typing in passwords - so if you can\'t connect, just direct whine on my general direction and I\'ll fix those.'),(350,'689d8a4c73','','The 24-level cap in the previous mod of RoME worked well. The only reason for allowing up to level 30 is to get in some epic levels, and almost none of the characters need to be epic, unless we\'re battling epic foe (Sauron, Balrogs, dragons).'),(351,'719f9aa762','','Worked fine for me. The new areas are now in the mod. Also added several area transitions.'),(352,'2bccb8822b','','Oh, yes. The module rests in ed_common folder. When changing, remember to change the incremental.\r\n\r\nI\'m likely changing file name to something not containing spaces, but anyway, the numbers on the end of the filename are in format YYMMDD, so if you change the old version of the mod, remember to change the date. With multiple changes a day, we\'ll likely to have YYMMDD_incremental, like 050908_2 etc.'),(353,'b16b38298b','','Well, we won\'t battle them quite yet.\r\n\r\nAnd again, we will balance that on open testing phase, but for now, it seems that we have agreed on 24 level cap for players.'),(354,'332aa050c3','','For ease of use, the FTP server (and yes, the game server, as well, since they are in the same address) can be reached at elder-days.dyndns.org.'),(355,'f728a2931b','','I still dissent on this.\r\n\r\nM'),(356,'925be7cc77','','Worry not. I think we\'ll get to it if it is need. After all, the beta test will be for balancing the server. We just need a good initial guess.'),(357,'e77db02dd9','','For the sake of consistency, I\'m providing a benchmark of what I think would be adequate CNR difficulty for NPCS and/or creatures. Ideally, this could work across all race/npc types:\r\n\r\nCommoners/Citizens/Villagers/weak creatures: CNR 2-4\r\nLow level guards/low-level creatures:CNR 5-8\r\nMid level creaturess/guards/rangers: CNR 9-12\r\nMid-high level spawns/npcs: CNR 13-16\r\nlLords/high captains/high level spawns: CNR 17-20\r\nEpic: CNR 20 +\r\n\r\n---------------------------------\r\nCreated some nice orcs, which I named according to fictitious clan names I made up (orcs of the long tooth clan CNR; 10 -13, orcs of the broken maw; CNR 21- nasty). Used the troglodyte frameset on some of them. Very cute. \r\n\r\nCreated \"elf-hewer,\" a weapon designed with one single purpose in mind: to end lives.'),(358,'edecd771b3','Version History','Version 050908:\r\n\r\n- Added 3 areas: The House of Ransom; North Brethil; South Brethil\r\n- Painted several area transitions between areas I designed'),(359,'40fa9baec4','','When applicable, please use doors for transitions. You can pre-set the doors to open, if you want - but, on a doorway, it is much more comfortable to click on the doorway transition than to try to find the small area transition trigger hidden inside it.\r\n\r\nWell, that is what at least I think.'),(360,'ef2e425358','','Version 050909_1:\r\n- Fiddled around with subrace scripts. The subrace system is now activated, though only five subraces are ready. (House of Finarfin, House of Fingolfin, House of Feanor, Doriathin Sinda and Falathrim Sinda)\r\n\r\nHow to use: When filling the \"subrace\" field on character sheet, type the above, but with spaces replaced with lines (\'-\').\r\n\r\nAlso, there are some things that do not work quite as I wanted (setting stats, that is).\r\n\r\nAgenda for the weekend (note to self):\r\n- Fix subrace stats\r\n- Add subrace choosing conversation & scripts to Timeless Halls.\r\n\r\nAdditional changes:\r\n- Changed the module location from /ed_common/ to /ed_common/module/ on the FTP server. Older versions go to /ed_common/module/old/.'),(361,'c1906b0110','','Agreed, some of the floor based ones are tricky to find.\r\n\r\nM'),(362,'b66eb63764','','Bearing in mind that humans start at level 1, \'weak creatures/ villagers etc.\' should be 1-3, not 2-4.\r\nThat would expand the next braket to 4-8.. possibly better as 4-7, increasing the ranger of our \'mid range\' which is where I would expect most Pcs to be.\r\n\r\nM'),(363,'ef6d4cc661','','Another door-related note:\r\n\r\nWhen using hidden doors, do not use the default hidden door script.\r\n\r\nRather, place a trigger, which (when activated) spawns in a door.\r\n\r\nReason: Hidden door script will run each and every heartbeat. Triggers will be checked when needed. So, this improves performance.'),(364,'a423aec775','','Version 050909_2:\r\n\r\nFixed the subrace ability penalties not showing bug, and broke it again.\r\n\r\nSo, this is how it works (or a mix of several):\r\n\r\na)\r\n\r\n- Via a \"hide\" item, I can put any penalties except on the ability which the character has raised due to standard race ability modification, i.e. bonuses work but penalties not.\r\n- \"Hide\" items, as items, show no icon on the upper-right corner, but do still count towards the maximum buff cap.\r\n- Will require Item Level Restriction option turned off/implemented by scripts, if it wanted to be on.\r\n- Enforce Legal Characters option can be (and is recommended to be) on.\r\n\r\nb)\r\n\r\n- Via the subrace engine \"temporary\" ability modification, made permanent.\r\n- Works always, but shows icons on the upper-right.\r\n- Also, counts towards the maximum buff cap.\r\n- Both Item Level Restriction and Enforce Legal Characters can be on.\r\n\r\n[quote:a423aec775]c)\r\n\r\n- Via NWNX/LETO external libraries. (And requires the said extensions to the game.)\r\n- After the \"extra\" character creation is done, requires the player to relog. Includes functionality to do this via a script, but cannot test that (due to server public IP being different than behind the firewall).\r\n- Requires Enforce Legal Characters option to be turned off.\r\n- Item Level Restriction can be on.\r\n- Will change the file the character is stored into - the stat modifications will be both permanent and not count towards the maximum buff cap.[/quote:a423aec775]\r\n\r\nLast, but not least, we need to discuss what the subrace abilities will be like. Nothing major to be modified, but a few differences would be nice, since otherwise, we will have, what, six similar playable elf factions.\r\n\r\nVersions 050910 from 1 to 4:\r\n\r\nSubrace and database work. Now we have:\r\n\r\n- Subraces that work when Enforce Legal Characters is off.\r\n- External database (SQLite via ODBC2)\r\n- Racial starting locations placed for the races I have coded there\r\n- Lost of issues to be discussed on the field of racial balance.\r\n\r\nLate fix to 050910: Ran into issues of the database connection not working. Likely set it up wrong or something like that. For testing purposes I did disable the external database and return to use BioDB, which at least works.'),(365,'384b1621bc','','Thanks for the interest, Andy. We are currently in the early phases of the development work. Knowing myself and my partners, we are likely to produce something of great quality, or nothing at all. We are, when it comes to this, meticulous nerds.\r\n\r\nDesigning NPCs and areas is easy. Scripting is the hard work. \r\n\r\nAnyhow, the mod (in its current early phase) is open for viewing. If you\'d like a foretaste, let us know and we can arrange a meeting (providing you have NWN and Hordes of the Underdark installed on your PC).'),(366,'174cfe8bce','','Actually, the things needed to log in are:\r\n\r\nNeverwinter Nights and Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of Underdark\r\n\r\nor\r\n\r\nNeverwinter Nights Gold and Hordes of Underdark\r\n\r\nor\r\n\r\nNeverwinter Nights Platinum\r\n\r\nor\r\n\r\nNeverwinter Nights Deluxe (European repack of main game + expansions in a single three-CD package)'),(367,'8db9227d3b','','As a note:\r\n\r\nPAY ATTENTION TO WHAT CREATURE ResRefs YOU SET!\r\n\r\nOnce imported to the whole mod, those creatures can be a pain to remove.\r\n\r\nInstead, if you use the same, logic ResRef, those useless ones will be overwritten.'),(368,'e0b5570a33','','[quote:e0b5570a33]\r\nInstead, if you use the same, logic ResRef, those useless ones will be overwritten.[/quote:e0b5570a33]\r\n\r\nRead this over 3 times. Not quite sure yet what it means. Please substantiate with concrete examples.'),(369,'094350a0ec','','I.e. when designing NPCs, and chosing the tag & ResRef, please keep out of making it long.\r\n\r\nSay, I\'d be making an NPC blueprint for \"Brunhilde, the gifted healer and herbalist\". Now, if I leave it so, it\'s tag would be \"Brunhildethegiftedhealerandherbalist\" and Resref be \"brunhildethegif etc.\" (where etc. representing the fact that I can\'t from the back of my head remember how long a ResRes can be).\r\n\r\nInstead, we know that Brunhilde is from, say, Brethil, hence being one of the Haladin (ed2). Now, we\'d have the tag and resref \"jr_ed2_brunhilde\" (while the name can still be the longer stuff). While coding, typing the longer tag&resref causes more errors, specifically when the resref is cut and not the whole thing. (Also, if I\'d use accents, those characters would be removed from the tag & resref.) Also, as one can easily see, on \"jr_ed2_brunhilde\" we could easily see that the NPC is made by me (and hence, if you\'d need to know what it is for, you could ask me), and you could see its faction straight from the tag, as well.\r\n\r\nHint: If using the Creature Wizard to make NPCs, you can most easily set the tags so that you do first type the tag/resref to the field where the wizard asks name, and then after the initial creation is done, just change the name field to what it should be.'),(370,'1c3bbb3d63','','Top of your head, by the way.\r\n\r\nMuch clearer, thanks.\r\n\r\n\r\nM'),(371,'2c5870926d','Faction resrefs','Provided by Mith, moved here for ease of reference:\r\n\r\n[quote:2c5870926d]\r\n[b:2c5870926d]Elves:[/b:2c5870926d]\r\nFingolfin (eln) - Noldor of Hithlum and Mithrim, ruled by Fingon (possible default Noldo) (Also Gondolin, but will not likely make it to play) \r\nFeanor (elc) - Sons of Fëanor and their followers, ruled by Maedhros \r\nFinarfin (ela) - Noldor of Nargothrond and Gondolin, ruled by Finarfin, Orodreth (possible default Noldo) \r\nDoriath (eld) - Sindar of Doriath, ruled by Thingol and Melian (default elf) \r\nFalas (elf) - Sindar of Falas, ruled by Círdan \r\nLaiquendi (elg) - Green Elves and Avari, living on their own in their hidden places. \r\n\r\n[b:2c5870926d]Dwarves:[/b:2c5870926d]\r\nBelegost (dwb) - Dwarves of Belegost (Gabilgathol) (default dwarf) \r\nNogrod (dwn) - Dwarves of Nogrod (Tumunzahar) \r\nDurin (dwd) - Dwarves of Moria (Khazad-dum), keep them rare, since they don\'t live around here - merchants and the like \r\nPetty Dwarves (dwp) - Mîm and the like, smaller roguish Dwarves who everyone despises \r\n\r\n[b:2c5870926d]Men:[/b:2c5870926d]\r\nBor (hub) - Your friendly good Easterling \r\nEstolad (hue) - Those Men who still linger around Estolad \r\nWild Men (huw) - Those men not Edain, and not of Estolad \r\n\r\n[b:2c5870926d]Edain:[/b:2c5870926d]\r\nHouse of Hador (ed1) - Edain in Dor-Lómin \r\nHouse of Haleth (ed2) - Edain in Brethil \r\nHouse of Bëor (ed3) - Edain in Ladros and Dorthonion \r\n\r\n[b:2c5870926d]Orcs and evil men:[/b:2c5870926d]\r\nAngband (ang) - Henchmen of Morgoth \r\nUlfang (huu) - Your unfriendly bad Easterling \r\nBandits (ban) - Your friendly bandits hostile to everyone else and their dog. Well, not the dog. They\'re neutral towards animals. Yes, they really \r\n\r\n[b:2c5870926d]Others:[/b:2c5870926d]\r\nAnimal (ani) - Animals \r\nNeutral (neu) - If you need an NPC/thing neutral to all \r\nVoice ( ) - For the DMFI Voice NPC. Do not use. No. Do. Not. Use. \r\nGood NPC (good) - For good NPCs not doable with other factions, like prisoners. Will not attack or be attacked by evils, will be protected by good. \r\nEvil NPC (evil) - The opposite of \"Good NPC\" \r\nValinor (val) - In case we need a random member of Ainur to drop in. [/quote:2c5870926d]'),(372,'b7f07613bd','Meeting Logs','Here follows a short summary of what was discussed and agreed upon during our meeting of Sunday, September 11th:\r\n\r\n[b:b7f07613bd]Overall Vision and Purpose:[/b:b7f07613bd]\r\n\r\n- To provide a fun (though not perfectly fleshed out) mod prior to the release of NwN2\r\n- To create a base which we can then use to create a new mod upon release of NWN 2\r\n- To use the mod as an opportunity for learning\r\n- To strike a balance between a world that is fun to play in, and a world that convicingly attempts to recreate the world as described in the Silmarillion\r\n\r\n[b:b7f07613bd]Scope:[/b:b7f07613bd]\r\n\r\n- We will be focusing on those areas ranging from the Ered Luin to West Beleriand (Nargothrond), as well as the areas north of there (Nan Dungortheb, Taur-nu-Fuin, etc)\r\n- Time of the mod: we will begin in Fourth Age 456, shortly following the Dagor Bragollach.\r\n- The character level cap will initially be set at level 24 for PCs, and level 40 for major NPCs\r\n- Players will be allowed to choose from a number of playable factions, including orcs and evil men. PvP allowed, naturally.\r\n\r\n[b:b7f07613bd]Schedule:[/b:b7f07613bd]\r\n\r\n- We will try to go live with the beta version of the mod in late November\r\n- We agreed to hold bi-weekly meetings; the next meeting is tentatively set for Sunday, September 24th. The time of the meeting remains to be determined, as we need to find a time suitable to all (Tharg, especially).\r\n\r\n[b:b7f07613bd]Roles and Responsibilities to date:[/b:b7f07613bd]\r\n\r\n- [b:b7f07613bd]Godric[/b:b7f07613bd]: Testing, npc creation\r\n- [b:b7f07613bd]Kara[/b:b7f07613bd]: Writing, language-related matters, testing, and possibly item \r\ncreation.\r\n- [b:b7f07613bd]Mith[/b:b7f07613bd]: scripting and coding factions, character generation system, crafting system.\r\n- [b:b7f07613bd]Red[/b:b7f07613bd]: PR department, recruitment of additional scripters and builders; item creation and testing.\r\n- [b:b7f07613bd]Qrizz[/b:b7f07613bd]: team-building, coaching, checking out info on NWN 2, middle- man\r\n- [b:b7f07613bd]Thargelion[/b:b7f07613bd]; some coaching, possibly some work on Feanorian areas (pending Tharg\'s input on this matter)\r\n- [b:b7f07613bd]Fidelio[/b:b7f07613bd]: area design, quest creation, area-specific scripting and creation\r\n\r\n(Addendum: I know this may sound simplistic, but I do recommend that everyone set for themselves some specific (and realistically attainable) targets over the next two weeks)'),(373,'184a8f2fc8','','Errata: Durin\'s Folk, Petty Dwarves and Bandits (in addition of all factions classified as \"other\" above) will be non-playable.'),(374,'7c53ee38c8','','Full log to be found on the FTP, /ed_common/discussions/ed_discussion_110905.txt'),(375,'5533585681','','I assumed that NPCS, however, would be given the resref of their specific faction. Or am I wrong here?'),(376,'bd9b4731a9','','Fidelio:\r\nIn the corresponding thread in the reference documents, you are correct. Just wanted to remind that some factions are playable (and hence, enjoy a bit wider opportunities when played around, but will also lack some options, like subrace scripts.'),(377,'7dd58c9c40','','Mith, superb work on Menegroth. It really gives the impression of a thousand caves, and would make Melian blush with pride.;)'),(378,'0ec93edfe9','','Version 050911_3:\r\n[b:0ec93edfe9]\r\nAdded Creatures and NPCS[/b:0ec93edfe9]:\r\n -- Orcs of the Long Tooth (warrior, archer, and a scout type; the latter one is more of a plot creature; 21st level ranger with bane of enemies vs elves, half-elves, humans and, of course, orcs;)\r\n -- Orcs of the Broken Maw\r\n -- Taur-nu-fuin Orcs\r\n -- Men and Women of Brethil\r\n -- Farloth, High Watcher on Amon Obel (assuming Dorlas wasn\'t around yet)\r\n\r\n(Mith note; when you do \'build\' module, it will write something about missing resource \"mobileanima\"- no worries, I will take care of that)\r\n\r\n[b:0ec93edfe9]Added several items[/b:0ec93edfe9]: (for the orcs and people of Brethil):\r\n\r\n[b:0ec93edfe9]Added Dimbar[/b:0ec93edfe9]: (with an area transition into North Brethil, across the Brithiach)\r\n\r\nDid not yet import my work on Bar-en-Danwedh, as I needed to change the hidden doors, I was using the hidden door trigger).\r\n\r\n[b:0ec93edfe9]Next[/b:0ec93edfe9]: populate areas with people; add some basic conversation scripts; script generic npc behaviour;'),(379,'08f4d2197d','Quest Ideas (please add)','Here are two minor quest ideas I was thinking of implementing:\r\n\r\n-1. The tomb of Haleth has been desecrated, and some artefact symbolic \r\nto the Haladin has been stolen by outlaws. PCs are required to investigate the tomb, find clues, and recover the artefact. (Outlaws are located in a cave somewhere not too far away).\r\n\r\n-2. A Captain of Nargothrond has received reports that an armed group of Feanorians have taken refuge in a cave to the east. These Feanorians have been trying to persuade some of Finrod\'s rangers to cast aside their loyalties, and join the Feanorians instead. Players are required to find the cave and attempt to resolve this matter diplomatically, and without bloodshed.'),(380,'1826e3a149','','Quests in the Blue Mountains:\r\n- Mining quest: Smith in Belegost requires raw materials. Providing a pick, he sends players to the mines below the city.\r\n- Rid the mines of goblins: Mines of Nogrod have been infiltrated by goblins, and it is up to the player to get rid of them.\r\n- Caverns of Mt. Dolmed: A dwarf as been lost into the caverns dug into Mount Dolmed. Find & retrieve.\r\n\r\nEast Beleriand:\r\n- Bet in the tavern: While drinking in Estolad, you make a bet that you have the guts to travel to Nan Elmoth and fetch a rare plant. Good luck.\r\n- Caranthir\'s wares: Caranthir has left his lands, moving to Himring, but his halls all still there. Plotline evil men: Steal. Plotline Feanorian elves: Fetch, and transport some treasure to the keep in Thargelion - South.\r\n\r\nAdditionnally, I will take a look on how the diplomatic quests can be done, once that I have time.'),(381,'319e46d660','','Elder Days area plan for alpha version (suggestion, Gerald please correct me if I\'ve understood your areas wrong)\r\n\r\nNote: Smaller areas (glades, house interiors etc.) left out.\r\n\r\nRealm:\r\n- Doriath\r\nAccess:\r\n- Neldoreth to Nan Dungortheb\r\n- Region - East to Dor Dinen\r\n- Region - West to Amon Rûdh\r\nInternal connections:\r\n- Region - East to Region - West\r\n- Region - East to Neldoreth\r\n- Region - East to Menegroth - Thousand Caves\r\n- Menegroth - Thousand Caves to Menegroth - Throne Room\r\n\r\nRealm:\r\n- Nargothrond\r\nAccess:\r\n- Amon Rudh to Region - West\r\n- Amon Rudh to Fens of Sirion\r\n- Crossings of Teiglin to Brethil - North\r\nInternal connections:\r\n- Crossings of Teiglin to Talath Dirnen\r\n- Amon Rudh to Talath Dirnen\r\n- Talath Dirnen to Taur-en-Faroth\r\n- Taur-en-Faroth to Halls of Narog\r\n- Halls of Narog to Halls of Finrod\r\n\r\nRealm:\r\n- Brethil and Dimbar\r\nAccess:\r\n- Brethil - North to Crossings of Teiglin\r\n- Dimbar to Nan Dungortheb\r\n- Brethil - North to Tol Sirion (Future option)\r\n- Brethil - North to Crissaegrim (Future option, Gondolin will not be in)\r\nInternal connections:\r\n- Brethil - North to Brethil - South\r\n- Brethil - North to Dimbar\r\n\r\nRealm:\r\n- East Beleriand (Neutral)\r\nAccess:\r\n- Fens of Sirion to Amon Rudh\r\n- Estolad to Himlad - South\r\n- Estolad to Himlad - North\r\n- Estolad to Thargelion - North\r\n- South of Estolad to Thargelion - South\r\nInternal connections:\r\n- Fens of Sirion to Southwest of Doriath\r\n- Southwest of Doriath to Southeast of Doriath\r\n- Southeast of Doriath to Estolad\r\n- Southeast of Doriath to South of Estolad\r\n- South of Estolad to Estolad\r\n- Estolad to Nan Elmoth\r\n\r\nRealm:\r\n- Himlad and the lands north of Doriath\r\nAccess:\r\n- Nan Dungortheb to Dimbar\r\n- Nan Dungortheb to Neldoreth\r\n- Dor Dinen to Region - East\r\n- Himlad - South to Estolad\r\n- Himlad - North to Estolad\r\n- Nan Dungortheb to Pass of Anach (Future option)\r\n- Himlad - North to Pass of Aglon (Future option)\r\nInternal connections:\r\n- Nan Dungortheb to Dor Dinen\r\n- Dor Dinen to Himlad - North\r\n- Himlad - North to Himlad - South\r\n\r\nRealm:\r\n- Thargelion, Ossiriand and Blue Mountains\r\nAccess:\r\n- Thargelion - North to Estolad\r\n- Thargelion - South to South of Estolad\r\n- Ossiriand - Between Rivers Ascar and Thalos to South of Estolad\r\nInternal:\r\n- Thargelion - North to Caranthir\'s Halls by the Lake Helevorn\r\n- Thargelion - North to Thargelion - South\r\n- Thargelion - South to Ossiriand - Between Rivers Ascar and Thalos\r\n- Thargelion - South to Blue Mountains - Ered Luin\r\n- Blue Mountains to Belegost\r\n- Blue Mountains to Nogrod\r\n- Blue Mountains to Mt. Dolmed\r\n- Belegost to Belegost - Mines\r\n- Nogrod to Nogrod - Mines\r\nAdditional note:\r\n- For the Ossiriand area, could expand it to be in between R. Ascar and Legolin (in a single area)'),(382,'22fccb3578','','I don\'t think anyone will notice, but I\'ll be updating the FTP server today.\r\n\r\nPreviously, it was a Win98 with 1.7Gb of HD space (!). When I\'m finished, it is Win98 /w 2 Gb dual booting with Debian Sarge /w 18 Gb. (Yes, I quite need that Win98 for a few old programs.)\r\n\r\nEDIT: Ok, hardware conflict. Make that Linux part Red Hat 9.'),(383,'b79dfc3e60','','Update done.\r\n\r\nIn regular FTP connection, your password will be in plain text over the net, which I am not too fond of seeing to happen.\r\n\r\n[url]http://www.ssh.com/support/downloads/secureshellwks/non-commercial.html[/url]\r\n\r\nPlease, use the program downloadable from the link above to connect. Alternatively, I have added the program\'s Windows setup executable into your home folders, where you still have access via FTP.\r\n\r\nThe client includes an easy-to-use interface for file transfer, and is free for non-commercial use.\r\n\r\nWith the command line (shell) it allows you to use, the most important command right now is \"passwd\". After logging in, use it to change your password.'),(384,'3020f1c060','','\'Scuse? \r\n\r\n*confuzzled*\r\n\r\nM'),(385,'c2d7c7f9b5','','Mith, I downloaded the program from your site, installed it, added your site, and tried to reach it. I found that passwd didn\'t work, so I used my old one, and this is what I got:\r\n\r\n[quote:c2d7c7f9b5]SSH Secure Shell 3.2.9 (Build 283)\r\nCopyright (c) 2000-2003 SSH Communications Security Corp - http://www.ssh.com/\r\n\r\nThis copy of SSH Secure Shell is a non-commercial version.\r\nThis version does not include PKI and PKCS #11 functionality.\r\n\r\n\r\nStill tweaking things. Please be patient. -Mith\r\n\r\n\r\nmalloc: subst.c:2563: assertion botched\r\nmalloc: block on free list clobbered\r\nStopping myself...[karakedi@mithos karakedi]$ [/quote:c2d7c7f9b5]\r\n\r\nNow what? Or was your FTP site where I should go in the first place?\r\n\r\nI think we need some instructions on how to use the new program and how to connect with right site--and possibly how to navigate once we are there.'),(386,'7f835ee25f','','I was in a hurry when posting - I will have a look at the error, and see what I can do. (I did, myself, encounter some oddities.) That looks like the server would have ran out of free memory.\r\n\r\nEdit: The error did not occur on me, though yes, your passwords seems not to have been changed.\r\n\r\nSSH short how-to:\r\n\r\nThe system is now a multiple-user, multiple-process system (though a slow one).\r\n\r\nAt first, I suggest logging on on a SSH shell program, like the one provided (SSH Secure Shell, Putty, etc.)\r\n\r\nAt first, you\'ve being asked if you trust the key my system provides - yes, I think you can. (It would be also possible that someone would be scamming passwords, but it is not at this case very likely.)\r\n\r\nThen, enter your username and password, when they are being prompted. The pair is the same as with the FTP.\r\n\r\nAfter you have logged in (you get the message of the day \"Still Tweaking things. Please be patiient. -Mith\"), and can enter commands on the command prompt (on me, that\'s \"mithfindel@mithos mithfindel $\")\r\n\r\nWhat that means:\r\nmithfindel (first): User name\r\nmithos: System name\r\nmithfindel (second): Current directory\r\n\r\nRight now, all you\'ll need the command prompt for is for changing your password to something else. However, there are a few things doable.\r\n\r\nCommand list:\r\npasswd - password change\r\ncd .. - up directory\r\ncd (directory name) - move to directory\r\nscreen - launch screen\r\nirssi - launch IRC client\r\nman (name of command) - display manual\r\npico (filename) - basic text editor. In pico, ^ means Ctrl key on the bar showing commands on the bottom of the screen.\r\nlynx - basic text-only www-client.\r\nlogout (or exit) - log out\r\n\r\nOnce you have launched the screen, you can additionnally:\r\nexit - quit screen\r\nCtrl+A and D (First, press Ctrl and A the same time, and then after that, press D) - Leave screen, but do not quit.\r\n\r\nIf you have left screen running:\r\nscreen -r - reconnect to your screen\r\nscreen -dr - If your connection crashed while you were in the screen, this command will detach the screen and reconnect it back to you.\r\n\r\nWith Ctrl+A D, the screen and any programs you run within will keep running, even if you log out! This allows you to do some nice things, like first run screen, then run irssi, connect to IRC, and then just press Ctrl+A D, leaving the IRC client running - and yes, when you log the next time, type screen -r - the program has been on for the whole time, logging what has been talked while you were away. Handy, huh?\r\n\r\nCommands in irssi:\r\n/conn (url) (port) - Connect to irc-server (url), on the port (port)\r\n/conn stratics.frws.com 7000 - Connect to Stratics IRC network\r\n/conn irc2.glowfish.com 7000 - actually, this server is closer to the machine you now are on.\r\n/nick (name) - choose name\r\n/join #(channel name) - join channel. If it does not exist, it will be created\r\n/leave - leave the channel you are on now\r\n/msg (nick) or /query (nick) - open a private channel with the said nick\r\n/away (text) - Will mark you away, and \"text\" showing why. I usually use \"/away I\'m away!\". Once away, typing /away (without any parameters) sets you as present.\r\n/op (nick) - make another user an operator (operators only)\r\n/deop (nick) - remove operator right (operators only)\r\n/quit (text) - quit irssi, show text to others as farewell. (remember, if you want to leave it running in the screen, press Ctrl+A D)\r\n\r\nMore commands can be found in Linux/Unix tutorials (for the shell) or IRC tutorials (for irssi).\r\n\r\nThe SFTP side of the client (the Secure File Transfer program) works just as your FTP program would, with a graphical interface and all, with one exception - the traffic over the network is secure.\r\n\r\nWhy all this fuss? Well, the ability to provide you access to a screen, but also, to make it sure that no one gets to scam your passwords. (I have already got a few connection attempts from Romania to the FTP server, and I do think none of us lives there.)'),(387,'29d391004f','Spell Casters cap at lvl 16','Hiya, \r\n\r\n I think the spell caster cap should be at 16 for a Wizard/Sorc. Why? Because at lvl 16 a mage gets his/her Premonition. Without Prem a mage is quite useless, and if this is what you are aiming for just ban the classes all together, so avoid this type of thing. My opinion only, of course. I am more then sure with nerfed spells, and not having their major defence spell will automatically make the mages useless, not fun to play, etc what have you. I am also more then sure that IF you allow mages to go to lvl 16, and keep clerics at 15 mages may have a chance again VS a cleric, remember, one of the major tools with a mage vs cleric is a 9th lvl spell called Mordenkainen\'s Disjunction, you have to be a lvl 17 mage to access lvl 9 spells, so by capping them to 16, they have more a chance and not be completely useless against our favorite clerics.\r\n\r\nThanks for your time,\r\nGodric'),(388,'21e36542a8','','Mithfindel writes:\r\n\r\n[quote:21e36542a8]More commands can be found in Linux/Unix tutorials (for the shell) or IRC tutorials (for irssi). [/quote:21e36542a8]\r\n\r\nI think you can expect that few if any of us are going to go hunting these. If there are commands we need, then please provide them. The list could go in our reference forum.'),(389,'3a39c4460b','','Godric, you\'re thinking PvP here. Let\'s be sure that our PCs are equipped to have a chance in PvE, which may be more important for the game as a whole. I\'m not sure what capping a cleric at 15 would do; cleric level 9 spells aren\'t very useful anyway. Level 16 doesn\'t add new spells, just adds more slots.'),(390,'576538cd77','','If there are playble evils (orcs and easterlings) then there automatically has to be PvP. We should take it into consideration from the beginning.\r\n\r\nM'),(391,'4571739842','','Can\'t log in at all now.'),(392,'f97b5d6bdc','','Yes, caster level likely has to be determined by class.\r\n\r\nAnd no, casters are not useless without Premonition. In any case, we\'ll practically force casters into a caster/fighter build, and I think at least Red liked to have Gilnaur (then Fig4 / Wiz14 or so) with him. Alone, casters are supposed to be weak.\r\n\r\nAlso, issues such as this will be properly addressed during the beta test phase, but yes, it is good to have them in mind right from the start.'),(393,'a5761bfc20','','Yep, Gilnaur was my favourite accomplice. Bloody useless, except to make me tougher....\r\n\r\n*slight smile at Mith*'),(394,'2ab1248b77','','Worry not, those commands I provided will be more than enough. And anyway, you need not to use the system for anything else than file transfer, if you feel so - everything else is just a bit extra made possible by that.\r\n\r\nKarakedi, can you log on with FTP?\r\nAnyone else, tried if the problem persists? I\'ll ask a few others to check.'),(395,'9a95684732','','Question for Mith:\r\nI\'d like to populate areas with Npcs but, as much as possible, try to give a different appearance, perhaps name, to each Npc. (As opposed to, say, having the Halls of Narog populated with Npcs called \"Elf male\" and \"elf female\").\r\n\r\nThere are two ways of doing this:\r\n\r\n(1) Create a separate npc each time in the toolset; or\r\n\r\n(2) Use the vanilla version I have of the \"elf male\" and \"elf female,\" place them on the map, and customize them from the map itself. In this case, several Npcs might keep have a different look, but will all have the same resref in the toolset.\r\n\r\nI\'d naturally prefer for option (2), as it saves a lot of time, though my intuition tells me this might cause lag problems. Feedback?'),(396,'b03df9c305','','Absolutely. He, as a caster/weak fighter is almost useless - until he gets a few people around him. Why to have a single caster trying to act a fighter, when buffed, when you can have a caster who is a caster, and buffing fighters around him to be a bit meaner than usual?'),(397,'40275dbc30','','Looks good. \r\n\r\nThe only thing you\'ll have to decide on, Mith, is whether the east-west road passes through Nan Dungortheb, or through the northern edge of the Forest of Neldoreth map. \r\n\r\nSince we aren\'t planning on having Nan Dungortheb in for the alpha phase, it might be to have the road pass through Neldoreth (for the time being at least). In so doing, Neldoreth be connected to Dimbar.'),(398,'ab5240b05d','','Some important things I forgot, a few general things, and a few things related to navigating in the shell or file transfer client:\r\n\r\nGeneral:\r\n\r\nYour password must be long enough (6 to 8 character, at least) and can contain numbers as well. It is case sensitive. Unlike in Windows, when you type it after passwd command, it will not show anything at all. Not even asterisks as placeholders.\r\n\r\nThe correct syntax for a regular user is:\r\n\r\n[quote:ab5240b05d]passwd (return) oldpassword (return) newpassword (return) newpassword (return)\r\n[/quote:ab5240b05d]\r\nUnless we get a security breach, the only thing you absolutely need to do, is to type this command once. After that, you can forget the shell part, if you think you do not need it.\r\n\r\nIf you get stuck, try pressing Ctrl+C. It will send the break signal, ending programs you use, if you are still connected.\r\n\r\nFile names and commands are case-sensitive. All basic commands are on lowercase.\r\n\r\nNavigation:\r\n\r\nAnd then, the command to list directory structure is \"ls\".\r\n\r\nThe command to show in which directory you are in is \"pwd\".\r\n\r\nDirectories are marked with \"/\". Your home directory is \"/home/yourusername/\", abbreviated ~ (so cd ~ brings you back home).\r\n\r\nWhen going up-directory with cd .. - notice, it is \"cd\"-space-period-period.\r\n\r\nFinal note:\r\n\r\nWhat you will *need* the shell part, is to change your password!\r\n\r\nShell cannot be used to tranfer files - for that, use Secure File Transfer client.\r\n\r\nKnown bug: In the SFTP, you cannot use the \"up directory\" button to move up to /home from /home/yourdirectory. As a workaround, type /home on the box above your \"remote files\" view. (The left directory listing in the GUI is your \"local\" files on your own computer, the right one is your \"remote\" files.)'),(399,'52130af038','','Note to Isa: if the server fulfills the vision we have of it, evils will be fully supported. In fact, most of the areas north of Ered Gorgoroth will cater to evil players, evil quests included.'),(400,'bb5cae1632','','Of course, that will be towards the end-game. In the beginning, all Easterlings will be or at least pretend to be on the good side, until the next decisive battle. (Which will be what the lore knows as Nirnaeth Arneodiad).'),(401,'edb2ef77d1','','Absolutely (2).\r\n\r\nThis will minimize the need for separate blueprints, and hence save space in the mod.\r\n\r\nNote that while they all will have the same resref, you still can change their name and tag. And what comes to commanding existing NPCs, the tag is what is needed.\r\n\r\nOnly different NPC types, and important NPCs should have their own blueprint.'),(402,'634c9318d3','','For the reason of the Girdle of Melian, I say that we have it go thru Nan Dungortheb - or again, I\'ll remake Neldoreth with rural tileset, allowing me to divide it into two. (This would practically mean that Nan Dungortheb is, basically, an empty area.)\r\n\r\nNote that you can also travel thru the southern road, over the Fens of Sirion and thru the wilderness, though of course, it\'d be nice to have the road in.\r\n\r\nSo, the options are:\r\nA) Have Nan Dungortheb placeholder area\r\nor\r\nB) Make Forest of Neldoreth with rural toolset.'),(403,'5f5dd7ff4f','','In which the goods (elves and Edain) get their asses handed to them.\r\n\r\nDo we intend to re-enact that? If so, we\'ll need some more NPCs, especially on the evil side.\r\n\r\n\r\n*doesn not look forward to PvP*'),(404,'0f7a3a324e','','In Nirnaeth, there are two things we need to remember:\r\n\r\nAt first, it is in 471 (or close - while we certainly go after canon, player actions might advance or delay it a bit).\r\n\r\nSo, once we get things rolling (after release) it will take 14 ingame years to reach there. If we advance one month a week, that will take 12x14 = 168 weeks, or a bit over three years to reach Nirnaeth.\r\n\r\nIn any case, it will take a long time to reach there, and even with the time compressed twice as fast, NWN2 would be released (at least hopefully) before that. If we release early next year and NWN2 is release in time, even triple time advancing speed wouldn\'t be enought to bring Nirnaeth into this mod.\r\n\r\nThe second thing to remember is scale. There is absolutely no way NWN can re-enact a battle of that size. All we could do for Nirnaeth is an area (Anfaughlith) where we put NPCs with a command to spawn a new one on death. What the players could do in Nirnaeth is a series of quests, as messengers, perhaps on a vain skirmish, or such. Nirnaeth would on this timescale, again perhaps dependant of player actions, last a few days or more, so instead of a battle, it would be portrayed what it \"really\" was: An all-out war in the north lasting for some time.\r\n\r\nFor reference, Dagor Bragollach did last a few months, if I am correct.\r\n\r\nOne more note: For how it, perhaps, could be done, check John \"Gestalt\" Bye\'s module \"Good vs. Evil\". Just a simplified version of that. Still not sure how much it would require resources (in terms of CPU and memory).\r\n\r\nAnd yes - I don\'t think that we need to cut it into stone that the good side is decimated in Nirnaeth. Of course, the odds are crushing, so it would indeed need superhuman (and even superelven) feats of the players of the good side. Specially when mr. Gothmog and his crew jump in.'),(405,'b3b915a042','','Yet another note: How to manage your files:\r\n\r\n(Within the server - the File Transfer Client has a nice graphical interface, but on the client you can use the following commands.)\r\n\r\nmv - Move, syntax \"mv source destination\". As a note, this command is also used to rename files.\r\ncp - Copy, syntax \"cp source destination\".\r\nrm - Remove, syntax \"rm target\".'),(406,'9c53e1109e','','Can no longer log in, either. \r\n\r\nIsn\'t there a simpler way of doing this? If the interface gets too complicated, my sense tells me people will be hesitant to it.'),(407,'184f254ef7','','To avoid duplication with what Mith might be working on:\r\n\r\nDid some basic work/research on the following, and these should be entering the mod within the following (3-5 days)-- (some tweaking being possibly required):\r\n\r\n- Bank and player vault system\r\n- Generic npc scripts (mobile and immobile animations, easily \r\n customizable)\r\n- Merchant system (will take a bit longer)\r\n- Static and moveable chairs which can be sat on (believe it or not, being \r\n able to sit on a chair requires a script *sighs*)'),(408,'a2af8be9d8','','The only way it can get broken is:\r\n\r\n1) I have made a typo on the password\r\n2) You have made a typo on the password\r\n\r\nAs a remainder, it will not accept short words, or simple things as a password, only so-called \"strong\" passwords.\r\n\r\nSo, \"hello\" will not work, but \"TqbFjolD2\" will. And how I could possible remember such of a thing? The quick brown Fox jumps over the lazy Dog 2?\r\n\r\nI\'ll reset your password. (Currently, there\'s something cheezy going on with the password expirations, I\'ll check to it after I return from school.)\r\n\r\nAlso, one more time, the only commands you will really need, if you do not want to use the shell, are \"passwd\" (takes no parameters!) and \"logout\".\r\n\r\nHow \"passwd\" works, or what you need to type there:\r\n[quote:a2af8be9d8]passwd (return)\r\nyouroldpassword (return)\r\nYourNewP4ssw0rd (return)\r\nYourNewP4ssw0rd (return)[/quote:a2af8be9d8]\r\n\r\nAfter that, it should say \"all authentication tokens updated successfully\". Now, \"logout\" and log in again with the SSH Secure File Transfer Client which allows you to browse things through a graphical user interface.'),(409,'648a908f08','','Um, sarcasm? Or someone did get your password, and make a prank post?\r\n\r\nSorry, but I disagree with you.\r\n\r\nNone of those is essential at this phase. Currently, even dying is not implemented. (You can respawn immediately, with no penalties?)\r\n\r\nMovable chairs isn\'t that popular, what I can see, but doable.\r\nSitting: Check script named jr_sit_on_obj.\r\nMoveable: Doable easily, but I see absolytely no need to implement that, unless perhaps for a \"moveable stool\". How it is done:\r\n- When you use the item on the ground, it will lauch a conversation, two options of \"sit\" and \"pick up\". If player chooses to \"sit\", use a modified version of the jr_sit_on_obj (instead of the GetLastClicked() put GetPCSpeaker()). The other conversation option will spawn a token item in player\'s inventory and destroy the placeable.\r\n(Actually, I\'d likely have it a private conversation, and add options to turn the stool, as well.)\r\n- On the player\'s inventory, using the unique power of the token item will drop it on the ground. (Preferably this way, not OnUnAcquireItem, because if you do it this way, you can still sell those.)\r\n\r\nFor banks, vaults and eye candy: Banks and vaults are on my to-do list, but I\'d say that before we hit beta, they are totally unnecessary.\r\n\r\nEye candy will take time and it is not important, at least not on the current phase.\r\n\r\nSo, what I will do, in the order of importance I think they are:\r\n1) Character creation/game beginning\r\n2) Death system\r\n3) Script library for some common stuff.\r\n\r\nThose three will be mixed, I\'ll try to do parts of those ready soon.\r\n\r\nAs a side note, I\'ve caught cold/fever, so my capability to work is a bit impaired at the moment, but worry not, I\'ll get those done.'),(410,'94c4397879','','[quote:94c4397879=\"Jan\"][quote:94c4397879=\"Eric\"]Why are you calling them kinships?\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA[/quote:94c4397879]\r\n\r\nI think LRO has something to do with that ;)\r\n\r\nWhat do you suggest? Fellowship / guild / ...[/quote:94c4397879]\r\n\r\nI would think about it....would be very important. Could even consider having a different name based on race.\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(411,'cf788389d5','','All right, reason on your problems: Your password was set to expire in 0 days. (Hm, this should not have happened, will have to check why it did later.)\r\n\r\nI changed the setting so that your passwords do not expire, will make sure everything is configured ok when I return from school.'),(412,'e7f2419ed1','Hakpack for Elves','Hrm... should be sleeping right now... curse my occasional bouts of insomnia...\r\n\r\nAnyhow, I found a hakpack that emulates what \'real elves\' would look like in Tolkien. Some nice anonymous person actually took the time to remodel the configuration of the elf phenotype, and also added some nice new headsets to go with it.\r\n\r\nNow I know we had originally agreed not to use haks, but when using this hak your Noldor will actually start looking like Noldor, and stop looking like smurfs. The hak was specifically designed for another Middle-Earth module which, I believe, has since gone out of existence.\r\n\r\nYou can download the hak at:\r\nhttp://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=hakpaks.Detail&id=107\r\n\r\nIf you want to see what it looks like, go into your toolset, create a dummy module, select \"module properties,\" and install the hak under the \"custom content\" tab.\r\n\r\nI\'ve played around with it a bit. It looks awesome. The only problem is that if you put robes on your elf pc, the model is bugged and the head of the elf appears to be floating 2 feet above the main body. On all other clothing (tunics) and armour types, it works fine. \r\n\r\nAnyhow, I\'m just throwing this out for consideration. I\'d rather we skip this hurdle early on in the concept testing than later on when things have begun to take shape. Please try and tell me what you think. \r\n\r\nBack to bed....'),(413,'62c79cfe7e','','[quote:62c79cfe7e]Um, sarcasm? Or someone did get your password, and make a prank post?[/quote:62c79cfe7e]\r\n\r\nNo, but your slightly indignant sarcasm did manage to get a smile out of me. *wink*\r\n\r\nMoveable chairs are useless. Sittable chairs are not, when fleshing out specific areas. Proof being that you bothered even in this early stage to write the script. *wink wink*\r\n\r\nBasic scripting for npcs is not eye-candy, but a deliverable that was agreed upon at the time of our last meeting (check the logs).\r\n\r\nI may have gone ahead of schedule as regards the merchant. As for the vault, I downloaded a script which allows (with tweaking) us to have more or less the equivalent of what we would have on RoME. But admittedly we can keep the vault on the backburner for a while.\r\n\r\nOn the agenda:\r\n\r\n(1) Scripting npc basic convos; adding npcs; \r\n(2) Script some low-level quests \r\n(3) Placeables\r\n(4) Creatures that do not require an \"on spawn\" script.'),(414,'722f3bf6a2','','Ah, you just mentioned scripting NPC animations, which I took literally.\r\n\r\nFor basic scripting of quests, etc. try this one:\r\n[url]http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=625[/url] (Lilac Soul\'s Script Generator)\r\n\r\nOf course, you can script all by hand, which would likely produce more efficient scripts in terms of resources, but that program makes scripting fast (and easy). Actually, I think I used that to generate the sitting script, which I edited afterwards to throw the unneeded parts away.\r\n\r\nFor conversations, you\'ll need basic conditionals (happens-if) and local character setting. If you need any persistant variable functions, they can be found from jr_db_methods, so you just #include that into your script and use the according function (DBReadInt() or DBWriteInt(), for example.)'),(415,'acf0d50b6f','Waypoints','A few general things:\r\n\r\nYour casual waypoints (for example used in area transitions) need no additional things in front of them.\r\n\r\nFor map notes, I\'ve used MN_TheRestOfTheTag.\r\n\r\nSpecial waypoints (the two most common):\r\n\r\nWP_ThisIsCreatureTag_NN: Any waypoint named WP_ + tag will make the creature with the tag walk the waypoints.\r\n\r\nPOST_ThisIsCreatureTag: Any waypoints named POST_ + tag will make the creature with the tag return to the waypoint after completing what it was doing.'),(416,'606aaa334e','When to make blueprints?','Blueprints are needed, if and only if:\r\n- The creature, item or placeable will be needed to be spawned by a DM or a script.\r\n\r\nThings that will not require a blueprint include:\r\n- Waypoints\r\n- Different variations of the same NPC. (Say, ten commoners clothed differently - make them all from the same blueprint, and then change clothes)\r\n- Triggers'),(417,'a4ce189816','Placing of creatures, and encounter basics','Place the creature on the toolset, if:\r\n\r\n- It is unique (heroes, quest-givers)\r\n- You need to customize its gear (commoners)\r\n\r\nDo not place it in the toolset, if:\r\n\r\n- It is part of an encounter\r\n\r\nInstead, if the creature is supposed to be part of an encounter, place an encounter, instead.\r\n\r\nEncounter tricks:\r\n\r\n- You may specify the encounter faction. Encounters will spawn only to hostiles. For example, let\'s suppose we have a thief going in a castle. He\'s originally neutral to the castle owners, so he will not spawn the encounters that are set to castle owner\'s faction. However, he takes an item from a chest that belongs to the faction and a NPC near sees this. Now, the thief becomes hostile to the castle owner\'s faction, and when he escapes, he will spawn the encounters of the castle owner\'s faction, getting guards after him.\r\n\r\n- Hostile encounters will spawn to everyone.\r\n\r\n- Encounter faction and encounter createre\'s faction need not to have anything in common. For example, we could have an Angband faction encounter (spawns only to the enemies of the Dark Lord) that will spawn an Edainic scout to guide the player into the hideout of the outlaws in Dorthonion. Also, this would be a processor-friendly way to make a battle: Spawn encounter with NPCs that are hostile to each other. They will fight each other, but not all the time: Only when the player spawns them.'),(418,'bebf2393bc','','Version 050914_1:\r\n\r\n- Some behind the scenes work on scripts\r\n- Made a first draft of Fens of Sirion area, connected several areas to each other.\r\n\r\nMorm: Slightly modified Amon Rudh, in order to make Girdle of Melian function, and to put in transition to Fens of Sirion.'),(419,'20b6721f5b','','Adding the two following quests: (low level quests)\r\n\r\n-1. Pending a rather difficult search skill roll, players may find a rope which leads onto the upper ledge of Amon Ethir, the Hill of Spies. There, they will find a Ranger Captain of Nargothrond who informs them of a band of goblins who are running amock to the north, and assaulting wayfarers. Requirement: to find the gobs, kill the leader, and report to the ranger. (This quest has already been fully scripted, and will go into my next update, whenever that is)\r\n\r\n-2. An official in the Halls of Narog informs the pcs that some poacher has been killing the royal stags belonging to the king. Pcs are required to find the poacher and persuade him to stop. Option also to kill him (he really is a nice guy, in the end), with different repercussions.'),(420,'0b26b4ed2a','Available item types','The original idea was that we\'d limit the item types into those which do fit the mythos some way.\r\n\r\nThis would practically mean that gone are:\r\n- Most of the D&D exotic weapons (katanas, dire maces, double axes, two-bladed swords)\r\n- Heavy armor (plate, half-plate, splint, banded) with the exception of perhaps Orcs and Dwarves (in case of Dwarves, this armour would be using one of the models with the \"mail\" texture, and within the setting, considered as a well-made (if heavy) suit of chain mail).\r\n- Crossbows.\r\n\r\nAlso, javelins (darts, but with smaller stacks and more damage) could be well used more.\r\n\r\nThoughts about these?'),(421,'c05283ab78','','Would it be possible to change the permitted weapons for different classes, in that case? For example, wizards and sorcerers, if deprived of the crossbow, would need access at least to the shortbow as a ranged weapon. (NWN slings are all but useless against a strong enemy, and they may not be available to wiz-sorc anyway.)\r\n\r\nIs there any evidence for dwarves using plate of any kind in the Silmarillion? If not, they might also use only heavy chain.\r\n\r\n(Arms and armor are not an area to which I\'ve paid more than passing attention.)'),(422,'dbdcfbb5d0','','We can always beef up the slings (and ammunition), if they\'re useable. Extra feats/ weapon proficiencies are do-able as subraces, I believe. I don\'t know about any other way. Ideas, Mith?\r\n\r\n\r\nNo evidence (that I\'m aware of) of anything other than chain, but we would be using plate (in that instance) to simulate very well crafted \'heavy\' chain.\r\n\r\nWas contemplating using katanas as sabres. I, personally, would have more trouble justifying kamas than katanas. Shuriken are out. Agreed on the dire mace/ double axe front, not so sure of double-swords. I\'m too fond of them, so someone else needs to make that descision.\r\n\r\nI\'m all for javelins.\r\n\r\nM'),(423,'215511f894','','I think a case can be made for some armour types other than chainmail, though plate is definitely out of the question. \r\n\r\nFrom a historical perpsective, Middle-Earth seems modelled off 12th-13th century feudal Europe- England under Norman rule, if you will. Plate was invented in the late 14th century- other times, entirely. Though clearly 13 th c. warfare involved some types of armour akin to banded or splint or mail. Think of it, really, like armour being more or less akin to the Roman Lorica (i.e. chain covered with tightly wounded bands of leather of steel on top). \r\n\r\nI was, of course, reasoning here by historical analogy- which is, we all agree, limited. There are a few, if rare, examples in LOTR which would suggest a few, if rare, examples of armour. Take, for example, this passage, which describes the armour worn by Prince Imrahil:\r\n\r\n[quote:215511f894]\'His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn....\'\r\n-- The Lord of the Rings p. 646[/quote:215511f894]\r\n\r\nNot to omit, in addition, that the definition of mail is: \r\n1. Flexible armor composed of small overlapping metal rings, loops of chain, or scales.\r\n\r\nWhile armour overwhelmingy tends to be mail in LOTR, amidst those descriptions of mail we often find descriptions of chain hauberks. A hauberk is not quite chainmail, nor a chain shirt, since the body protection it offers tends to be much more extensive (going down all the way to the legs). \r\n\r\nI think it would be fun to include a variety of chain which we could call \"chain hauberk\".'),(424,'8528ef8c58','','Now onto the topic of weapons:\r\n[quote:8528ef8c58]We can always beef up the slings (and ammunition [/quote:8528ef8c58]\r\n\r\nI am 100% with you on that, Red. In fact, The DnD system is unrealistic when it comes to the regular damage dealt out by arrows and such. To the point, in fact, that few people choose to play archers at all. \r\n\r\nI also like the idea of javelins. A hunting weapon, primarily, but also a devastating weapon in warfare. Need only think of accounts of the Roman velite, or the Greek peltastai.\r\n\r\nOn the overall, however, I suggest we not be too heavy-handed in restricting weapon types. The issue here is striking a balance between a lore-conscientious recreation of the First Age, and making a mod that will be enjoyable for all. If we restrict too many weapon types, we\'ll end up with a mod populated with players whom either are using bastard swords, greatswords, or axes. Remember, too, that we will already be imposing rather heavy restrictions on classes and so on. \r\n\r\nThe double axe doesn\'t even exist in reality. It\'s pure DnD. We could restrict it, though in all honesty I tend to find it makes a rather nice orcish weapon (as does the scythe which, after all, is a farming implement all too unwieldy to be used in combat). \r\n\r\nI like the double-bladed sword on elves. Very aggressive, low on defence, and fast. I think it would make a great weapon for Feanorians.\r\n\r\nActually, I thought it might be nice to encourage a number of \"preferred weapons\" for the various factions and racial groups. Feanorians might prefer, say, two-bladed swords and greatswords. Fingolfinites (neologism?) might prefer a more defensive style using sword and shield.\r\nI think we could build on this idea to add flavour to the game, and reinforce the particular personality distinct to each faction/group.'),(425,'4a64583971','','I\'m actually not disappointed if we see a number of greatswords and greataxes - actually, they are the weapons used in Silmarillion.\r\n\r\nHúrin\'s axe was what\'d be a battleaxe (or perhaps greataxe, but he used it with a shield at the beginning of Nirnaeth). Tuor\'s famed (?) axe Dramborleg was a great axe (I think). Then, the swords of Noldor are described to be \"long and fell\", no?\r\n\r\nFor sabres: Technically, we\'d have still scimitar item type, though I agree that katana could be used. Technically, though, katana and bastard sword are two weapons that are nigh identical, save on appreance.\r\n\r\nAnd yes, if we had plate armour / equivalent, it would use the chain-like models. For an example, check the mod for the Dwarven Heavy Reinfored Chain, Dwarven Heavy Chain and Dwarven Reinforced Chain imported from my Third Age mod. Not supposed to be plate, but rather just well-made and heavy chain. Giving the edge to Dwarves as the best armor-smiths ever known.'),(426,'a6e01b0a91','Subraces','Not doable on all parts as is, and it\'s Third Age anyway, but still, can be found at /home/ed_common/documents/\r\nmiddle-earthraces.xls: in MS Excel format\r\ngalengil_subraces.html: in HTML format\r\n\r\nI\'ll add tomorrow what is the current implementation of subraces. The topic is open for discussion, though the matter will need balancing during the beta test.'),(427,'959b60088a','','Version 050915_1: Deleted some unneeded stuff. Mainly, the default subrace widgets. I guess no one\'s going to be sad about not being able to play Illithid around here.'),(428,'67baebd1fb','Greetings!','*already waves from afar*\r\n\r\nHail to ye!\r\n\r\nJust be prepaired for my ocean of crazy-hippie thoughts!\r\n\r\nOn a side note:\r\nAfter browsing the member\'s list here, I am delighted to re-see those from RoMe, whom I valued the most. Only few is missing. :?'),(429,'e0f238f7b8','','Zoltán, but never call me that. :o'),(430,'9677218153','','In case my words weigh more than a feather here: :) \r\n\r\nI would quite satisfied with the lvl 16 cap (since I am intending to make a higher lvl Cleric for the first time in my life :wink: and lvl 16 is what I wanted)\r\n\r\nYet, I don\'t think capping solves anything. (and here I am talking against myself, since I would be drat easy to be dispelled)\r\n\r\nJust nerf or weaken those fearful spells and everything will be good and smooth. \r\n\r\nIt is common knowledge in powergamer\'s circles, that there is nothing more powerful than Acid Sheath and Death Shield (or wossname) together. The answer: cap the maximum damage. Or just make mages\' life a hell on the mod. \r\n\r\n\r\nThe major problem here, that lower level spellcasters will be dispelled VERY easily, say from a lvl 24 rogue if he uses a scroll of mordenkainen\'s disjunction for example. Caster levels here would be 24 against 15. \r\n\r\nAnd you know, whatever planned before, it will all turn out in PvP, especially if evils are allowed.'),(431,'d2d7a541e9','','Just shrink humans, then. :D \r\n\r\nWell, what happens if you put back on an armour? Does the head pops back too?\r\n\r\nAnd what if with Hordes of the Underdark\'s special armour customization option - or elseways - we make robes with armour-type collars? Or is it the robe?'),(432,'7d66a8732d','','Wow, it looks impressing. Who devised it?'),(433,'8d5821ec26','','My advice:\r\n\r\nLet us set the maximum XP reward for a kill to 10 or 15. \r\n\r\nI really want to see people playing an age long with the same character. And not with 10 of them.\r\n\r\nI think this is where RoMe dug it\'s own grave. People care less about their characters now (with usually getting 40-90 xp per kill), than back in the old mod.\r\n\r\nPlayers need to be given something else to fiddle with than levelling. Maybe titles. Reknown is a hard-earned and precious thing.\r\n\r\nOn beyond 24th level development: What if simply a DM grants the level. Simple, easy. Well, maybe. Say, after every 3-4 level above 24th, only DMs can bring you further.'),(434,'cf7b523799','','Hmm... certainly this looks like exactly the faction list of an evil-players-only server. :) \r\n\r\nWhere are the dragons, Balrogs, wraiths, unnameable lurking evil creatures? Spiders, spirits, undead, ghosts, etc etc.'),(435,'720c058753','','[quote:720c058753]Hmm... certainly this looks like exactly the faction list of an evil-players-only server. \r\n\r\nWhere are the dragons, Balrogs, wraiths, unnameable lurking evil creatures? Spiders, spirits, undead, ghosts, etc etc.[/quote:720c058753]\r\n\r\n\r\nPlease read more carefully:\r\n\r\nDragons, Balrogs, orcs and various other servants of Morgoth will all be under faction \"Angband.\"\r\n\r\nGhosts, wraiths and undead could also either be under \"evil npc\" or \"Angband,\" depending on the context.\r\n\r\nBandits/outlaws will be under the \"Bandit\" faction.'),(436,'7c54f57d09','','Welcome, Zoltan!'),(437,'909648216a','','[quote:909648216a]Well, what happens if you put back on an armour? Does the head pops back too? [/quote:909648216a]\r\n\r\nYes it does. But to really see the effects, I suggest you download the hak from the link I provided. All it takes is 10 minutes.\r\n\r\nThis hak works perfectly well assuming neither elven NPCs (not a problem) nor Pcs wear the standard \"robe,\" but stick to outfits and tunics when wearing clothes.\r\n\r\nMy only hesitation is related to some issues/problems which will happen in-game. For instance: an elven player finds a magic robe in a chest (spawned randomly), but can\'t wear it because he doesn\'t want to run around looking like the headless horseman. So, he whines, naturally, most players being asinine and pre-pubescent retards, if our experience in RoME can serve in any capacity as a benchmark for what will happen in this mod.\r\n\r\nThe implication, in this case, is that we\'d need to redraw the palette of items so that all robes appear to be, in fact, tunics. Which involves work and headaches. There may also be some downsides which I have not yet had the time to ponder.\r\n\r\nSo, in short, my opinion is that we should use the said hak providing we can, and are willing to, address the probems which it will raise.'),(438,'f2146b20ad','','Zoltan, I agree with the general direction of your comment regarding xp.\r\n\r\n[quote:f2146b20ad]\r\nPlayers need to be given something else to fiddle with than levelling. Maybe titles. Reknown is a hard-earned and precious thing. [/quote:f2146b20ad]\r\n\r\nThis is already in the ropes, though we\'re not sure how to do it.'),(439,'1ee5f00101','','Aware of the PvP comment - and no, spell scrolls have effective caster levels defined in them, and we do have full control of what spell scrolls are allowed in the mod.\r\n\r\nIf we limit caster power, of course we do not allow non-casters to cast more powerful spells than the casters can naturally cast.'),(440,'23b06aa2e5','','I still would have to have a look into this, but if we don\'t use, we can still say that we rely on the \"in the beginning of days, the Children of Eru were closer to each other\" comments.\r\n\r\nThe standard elf model is bad, yes.\r\n\r\nHm, would there be a way to make it tile graphics? Or character \"graphics\"?\r\n\r\n_______________\r\n\r\nNever finished NetHack.'),(441,'ad3ae12e9e','','Sorry. Apologies. Never thought about Dragons being henchmen, but you are right.'),(442,'e4dded3648','','Yep, the evils have a BIG boss in the true meaning of the word.\r\n\r\nThough, we might add a few different factions for the evils, but this needs to be designed better than just adding those.'),(443,'3750cba57b','','..noooooooooo!\r\n\r\nNot Galengil!! :wink: \r\n\r\nWelcome \'back\'.'),(444,'c341017180','','The models are totally bugged in the toolset, but in the game, they look good.\r\n\r\nAnd if you look well enough, the problem is that they are pre-HotU, hence, they do include only the \"non-robed body\" model. Hence, the \"robed-body\" does not scale, but is still in the D&D elf scale.\r\n\r\nIn my opinion, in order for that to be useable, we\'d need find a modeller to mod the robed body model for that, as well.\r\n\r\nThough, I haven\'t personnally taked note of my elves being shorter than humans. Also, a minor issue is that the art in those is not on the same level as the usual art we find in NWN (in a word, they are of too good a quality - it will not match the general outlook).\r\n\r\nModding every model to that level is out of question - hence, I would not add these, either. And for the reason stated in my previous post, it really is not that great a problem.'),(445,'9bb1e4d6e9','','Version 050916_1:\r\n- Begun the work of implementing the extended character creation.'),(446,'7d1a6e8bd8','','For argument\'s sake, I disagree with the capping. Please explain the benefits or reasons of it. I am open. Not that you are obliged to.\r\n\r\nAnd, my reasons for disagreeing:\r\n\r\n- I am not yet informed who spellcasters are, but I hope that Paladins and Bards will be capped as well, since they can cast Dispel Magic, and if they allowed to level further, than a mage... balance will be lost.\r\n\r\n- The First Age, when magic was more abundant in the soil, in the air, in trees, everywhere, people will forsake spellcaster classes. Why? Because:\r\n\r\n- if they are capped, they have to pick an other class after reaching the maximum level. Then they will get an [b:7d1a6e8bd8]XP penalty,[/b:7d1a6e8bd8] since not too many spellcaster-specific prestige class exist. (on a side note, they were invented or implemented to counter spellcasters\' power on somepoints)\r\n\r\n- Spellcasters will have less meta-magic feats, which is an other ascendancy for non-spellcasters\r\n\r\n- Elves, without magic is a controversy. And this may be a result of capping. And I am fully aware that they are allowed to level half-way up, but they won\'t pick these classes for the above mentioned reasons. \r\n\r\nWell, I can\'t think of anything else at the moment, let me hear you. :)'),(447,'7f2c22f8e4','','Elves and magic: \"Favoured class\". If I mod the xp system, it might be actually be possible to have in multiple favoured classes, but I\'d not keep that too high on the list - I\'m not that much for giving in to powerla--, um, powerbuilders. (No offence meant with \"powerlamers\" - I do that sometimes myself, though in a different scale.)\r\n\r\nAnd yes, we are using a custom xp model, so if we say that spellcasters get huge xp, then they get huge xp. If we say that spellcasters get xp only if they stand on their heads, then they get xp only when they stand on their heads. (Ok, I do not look forward to implementing that particular example, but you get my meaning.)\r\n\r\nAnd to your other question, on the Third Age project of mine, where I derive lot of ideas, I had a caster cap of 9 to 11, depending on class, in order to get rid of GMW being used to get +4s or better weapons.\r\n\r\nSo, while we might have some tuning between actual class limits, all the spellcaster classes (as in \"classes able to cast spells\") will have a limit there. Perhaps with the exception of Ranger and Paladin, since their spells aren\'t that great of an advantage. However, all capped classes will be capped close to each other.\r\n\r\nAnd again, of the balance you may worry when it\'s time to go to beta.'),(448,'f454d46a22','','About favored classes and elves...\r\n\r\nAs you all know, wizard is the only favored class for elves, a holdover from Forgotten Realms. Since elves will constitute a large number of our PCs--necessarily in the first age, as they were probably the most numerous \'speaking\' race in Beleriand at the time we\'re thinking of--I would urge that we provide them more \'occupational\' options. After all, magic is to some degree inherent in elves, but not all of them would choose to develop it, or they\'d develop it in specific directions (rangers, druids, paladins, clerics=healers), etc.\r\n\r\nFor this reason, I suggest we permit any casting class to be favored for elves. If we agree to cap all the casting classes at level 16 (or remove some of the more egregious spells at caster level 9), the spirit of elven magic--but not excessive magic--is maintained.'),(449,'e168f5d3e9','','The subrace we do use allows us to set a specific favoured class (or favoured class: any, or even favoured class: none) to the each subrace.\r\n\r\nOr, actually two: Favoured class for males and females separately.\r\n\r\nCurrently, what little I sketched down was followingly: (Actually, might not be accurate - didn\'t check the mod, just from the memory)\r\n(Subrace: male favoured class/female favoured class)\r\nHouse of Fingolfin: Paladin/Cleric\r\nHouse of Finarfin: Bard/Bard\r\nHouse of Feanor: Sorcerer/Sorcerer (admittedly, something else would serve better)\r\nDoriathin: Ranger/Bard\r\nFalathrim: Fighter/Fighter\r\nGreen Elf: Ranger/Ranger\r\nBoth playable Dwarf subraces: Fighter/Fighter\r\nDifferent mannish factions: Under consideration\r\nOrcs: Barbarian/Barbarian (Actually, haven\'t given it a thought yet, but that\'d sound appropriate)'),(450,'492eb024ac','','Mith, this is a very ingenious scheme, but it may be too restrictive. I would give each category at least two choices from the spellcasters and not make them gender-specific. One would be arcane, and the other divine. For example:\r\n\r\nFeanor: Sorc or Cleric\r\nFingolfin: Wiz or Pally\r\nFinarfin: Bard or Cleric\r\nDoriath: Wiz or Druid\r\nLaiquendi: Bard or Ranger\r\nFalathrim: Bard or Pally\r\n\r\nDwarf: Fighter or Barbarian\r\nEdain: Bard or Ranger\r\nOrc: Barbarian\r\nOrdinary human (rare at the beginning): anything, but lower cap'),(451,'23741b9472','','I think that is not doable in the original subrace engine, but once I get the thing running, I can check if that can be modified.\r\n\r\nAnd remember, currently we\'ve had favoured class: Wizard on all elves (in RoME) and it still hasn\'t stopped Paladin/Sorc builds etc.\r\n\r\nIn a word, I think that restrictions are good. While they don\'t actually restrict builds that much, the last thing I agree to do is that we give in to powerbuilders. Favoured class is not class restriction, it is just \"favoured class\".\r\n\r\nHowever, the subrace properties require a throughout discussion and balancing. For this purpose, we have a thread. ([url]http://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=48[/url])'),(452,'9ee1fe4a97','','I think that nerfing a whole class of spells just because one of them is too powerful is not the viable. \r\n\r\n(more will come, I am called for the dinner table)\r\n\r\nAlso, you might have not noticed, but Paladin\'s Holy Sword Spell is one of the hardiest and strongest thing in the entire game. It dispells anything with a 25% chance, no save, no level counting, nothing. This is a 4th level spell for them, and really, it is stronger than devastating critical.\r\n\r\nOn subrace favoured classes: I think Feanorians should start as neutrals or evils, and not goods. Just because their curse or swear or whatever you call it. I dont know at this moment whether changing allignment will be possible in-game or not, but I think this slight modification has a right to exist.'),(453,'cfa572519f','','I\'m not suggesting that we lift all restrictions. However, I see no reason to differentiate between the two genders, and since elves are by nature somewhat magical, I\'m proposing to give them either arcane or \'divine\' magic as the favored class. Once they pick one, however, the other should no longer be favored, if NWN mechanics will permit that. Elves will still be subject to a penalty if they take [i:cfa572519f]any[/i:cfa572519f] of the other classes.'),(454,'9d8b12376f','Dialogue in the OOC area','I had a chance to tour the module on Friday night both as PC and as DM. It\'s coming along nicely.\r\n\r\nOne minor erratum: the NPC with whom a PC talks needs to say something like: \'Would you like to go to Middle Earth?\' \r\n\r\nThere are some words missing in the current version.'),(455,'4fa3193542','','Ok, my browser is totally confused, this thread is in the Area Design sub-forum, so it took me 5 minutes to find it. :) It does not matter at all... :lol: \r\n\r\nYet, what I wanted to say in the beginning: \r\n\r\nThe hakpak works for the NwN classical robes, right? Those not-really robes.\r\n\r\nThen we could use only these robes AND the hakpak at the same time. Right?\r\n\r\nI\'d rather have tall Elves than those awfully looking new robe types. I dont know wether you have notived, but they look as if the body would stretch upwards a bit and shorten the neck\'s length by half.\r\n\r\nI tested it and it look absolutely ... thrilling. Now, they are even talled then ordinairy men! Tolkien would\'ve loved this! :D\r\n\r\nI am willing to edit all the new robes, if we are going to add this hak into the module.'),(456,'59b5289294','','I have a few suggestions:\r\n\r\nLet\'s add a few lines of scenery words to every area that is triggered upon entering the area. Some fancy mind-ticking, fantasy-inducating sentences that would make the module resemble books.\r\n\r\nArea lighting - I think the custom lights of NwN are not only lame, but I am totally fed up that everything is yellow. Trees are not green, but greenish-brown for example. My idea: 1. make the standard lights clear white everywhere. 2. create an atmosphere, a different lighting-visual setting (like fog, etc.) to every major region of Beleriand. For example: Hithlum would be grey and chilly, Doriath lush green and intriguing lights are playing in the background. Taur-nu-Fuin is shady and visibility tends to be zero. \r\nHow I would do this: just read the Silmarillion\'s referring sections, close my eyes and try to imagine the setting. This could be trans-communicated with and into colours. The air would \"look like\" to have a different colour when it is reeky, thin or windy. Smells too. Cold and warmth as well. This all plus something else. :wink:'),(457,'2618f7f12a','','*points out that it is a hak and therefore should be considered carefully before inclusion at release*\r\n\r\nM'),(458,'6b1b84ad56','','We\'ve already hammered out race alignments. Feanorians are not going to be evil. \r\n\r\nKara: I think that may be too complicated. And anyway, differnet favoured classes might actually make people think about what gender they want to play, because it could have an impact. which is a good thing, in my mind.\r\n\r\nHoly sword isn\'t the ultimate weapon, or whatever. You still have to hit your opponent. And it is probably the only worthwhile spell a paladin has, wheras a mage or cleric has far more options at their disposal. The idea was that we would restrict the caster levels so that we wouldn\'t have to nerf so many spells, or so I thought.\r\n\r\nM'),(459,'90661b913f','','Not true, Lómion.\r\n\r\nPaladins get Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Favour and Prayer. That is +15 to hit in all. And there is Bless (+1), Aid (+1) and Bull\'s Strength (which adds +1 or +2 to hit too). That is +17 to which you can add the Base attack (22 for lvl 24 chars) and Strength bonus (could be around 6): \r\n[b:90661b913f]45[/b:90661b913f] in total... And Holy Sword is the ultimate weapon. No wonder only Paladins get it. It also does divine damage against evils, which cannot be resisted in a normal way.\r\n\r\nI am not saying Feanorians should be evil. Only anything but good. And only at the start. *shrugs*\r\n\r\n\r\nAlso, words caught my ears that the original reason for capping is that way spellcaster would play a more supportive class and won\'t solo, eventually teamwork and party-adventuring would occur. 8) \r\nYet this could be solved in a much easier and painless manner. Only the XP table has to be manipulated that player\'s won\'t get any xp or cca 1 if they solo, and far more (cca 15) if they are in a party. \r\n\r\nOtherwise (with the cap) they will only pick a melee character, and use the spellcasting levels to buff themselves up, and go soloing. \r\n\r\nAlso, I have to admit, that sometimes, a bigger party of fully buffed melees is not enough.'),(460,'6279034e75','','I would suggest to leave all haks away in this point\r\n\r\nthey are easier to add later if needed'),(461,'1f8de93a68','','On the subject of Feanorians.\r\n\r\nWhen I created a few dummy Feanorians for the mod, I made them of good alignment. Were Feanorians nice and cheerful altruists? No. \r\n\r\nHowever, \"good,\" in the sense I wished to imply, is indicative of a team alignment, as opposed to \"good\" as an indication of individual and moral behaviour. What this means is that there was never any doubt that Feanorians, despite their dubious moral character, were opposed to the Dark Lord and his minions. \r\n\r\n--------------------------------------\r\n\r\nI think that Galengil raises a valid point. That is, when you start nerfing one thing and then a second, you end up upsetting the balance that was hitherto in place, and consequently may inadvertently generate another set of problems as a spin-off. So we should proceed with caution.\r\n--------------------------------------\r\n\r\nWhile I think the spell cap debate is important, I do also think our current priorities are elsewhere. No use in devoting tons of energy to this debate when we still need to work on putting in the fundamentals.\r\n--------------------------------------\r\n\r\nI think, at this point, that it\'s too early to decide on the matter of whether there should be a spell cap, and if so, what it ought to be. What we need to do, simply, is to chart a set of alternatives, or options if you will. Once we hit beta, we can test these options in-game, and go for the option which makes sense for the mod, and makes sense for the players too.\r\n\r\nHere are the alternatives (remind me if I forget any) that have been raised. \r\n\r\n(1) [b:1f8de93a68]Nerf spell visuals [/b:1f8de93a68](admittedly, this is not an option exclusive of the others)\r\n\r\n(2) [b:1f8de93a68]Implement a cap for spellcasters[/b:1f8de93a68]. We originally had suggested 15 th level, Godric suggested we bring this up to 16 th for mages.\r\n\r\n(3) [b:1f8de93a68]No cap for casters[/b:1f8de93a68]. Keep things as is.\r\n\r\n(4) [b:1f8de93a68]Nerf specific spells[/b:1f8de93a68].'),(462,'8e1b5ea47c','','[b:8e1b5ea47c]Galengil:[/b:8e1b5ea47c]\r\n[quote:8e1b5ea47c]I\'d rather have tall Elves than those awfully looking new robe types[/quote:8e1b5ea47c]\r\n\r\nMy point exactly. We will not be remodelling the elf phenotype so the new robes can fit nicely. The option can be expressed as follows:\r\n\r\n(1) We keep the new robes, but keep the short elves\r\n(2) We chuck the new robes, and bring in the tall elves\r\n\r\nI am certainly of the belief that the hak brings more to the mod than the robes do. The new heads looking \'too nice\' shouldn\'t be considered a negative thing, but rather a positive one. If anything, Noldor were supposed to look better than everyone else. \r\n\r\n\r\n[b:8e1b5ea47c]Mike:[/b:8e1b5ea47c]\r\n[quote:8e1b5ea47c]*points out that it is a hak and therefore should be considered carefully before inclusion at release* [/quote:8e1b5ea47c]\r\nAbsolutely. Remember, however, that most people still on NWN have played the game for some time now, and are consequently familiar with haks. If you browse the server listings, in fact, several of the most popular mods actually do use haks.\r\n\r\n\r\n[b:8e1b5ea47c]Qrizz wrote:[/b:8e1b5ea47c]\r\n[quote:8e1b5ea47c]I would suggest to leave all haks away in this point. They are easier to add later if needed[/quote:8e1b5ea47c]\r\n\r\nI agree entirely. We need to get the basics down first.'),(463,'c32f539da6','','Yes, I agree that area lighting can be used very evocatively. I\'ve tried some nice ones in my areas, and so has Mith in his.\r\n\r\nLines of text upon entrance: \r\n\r\nGreat idea to keep in mind, though we need to get some other stuff done first.\r\n\r\nIf you\'d like to try your hand at composing some of these descriptions, please do so.'),(464,'02753eb94b','','Mike:\r\n[quote:02753eb94b]We\'ve already hammered out race alignments[/quote:02753eb94b]\r\n\r\nCould these be made public?\r\n-----------------------------------\r\n\r\nOn the subject of different \"favoured classes\":\r\n\r\nKara and I have agreed that assigning different favoured classes on the basis of gender difference is not a good idea. Gender inequality/distinctions/stereotypes are already rife, and even in the most progressive of societies. No need to make such distinctions in game.'),(465,'ac84efd9bd','','No area of my devicing uses default lights, unless I have been in a hurry / not adjusted yet.\r\n\r\nAnd yes, as some of you may have heard, my original work name for the Third Age module was not \"[b:ac84efd9bd]Lays[/b:ac84efd9bd] of Eriador\" for nothing.\r\n\r\n*curses being so **** busy*'),(466,'6645edb264','','As noted, this is only eye candy, and does not change the game mechanics any way. And even more important to note, this is broken eye candy. I do agree that the HotU robes look dumb, but that\'s better than the old \"everyone wears pants\" model.\r\n\r\nThough, that is only my opinion. However, if we find that this adds something, it is easy to add later.'),(467,'957fea8f5d','','Yep, the only purpose for that NPC is to get you to the IC areas. That will be replaced with a wholly different NPC, with the extended character creation and all.'),(468,'d0ab3c62fd','','Well, I\'d rather the pcs wore clothing than just their pants, but maybe that\'s just me...\r\n\r\nIn the interests of making this available with minimum effort (regardless of how many people know how to dload haks.. how may will be bothered? I know if I see a dserver that uses haks I just think \'.... nahhh..\') I say we use no haks, or if we have to use any at all, make it ones that people are likely to have already.\r\n\r\nBut preferably none.\r\n\r\nM'),(469,'76697d40d2','','Actually, I like the HotU robes, though one of the female versions is more low-cut than I would like. The other one is rather nice (the so-called \'wizard\'s robe\").'),(470,'770e4d9946','','This issue is on the backburner for the time being, as far as I am concerned.\r\n\r\nHowever, in all fairness to the time I spent browsing the net in order to find this hak , please take a few minutes of your time to at least test it out before voicing your opinion on the matter... *winks*'),(471,'d2dfedf371','','I don\'t see the point of downloading it if I don\'t like haks. If I\'m overruled on this one then I\'ll take a look at it.\r\n\r\nAnd, hon, it would be nice if you would stop back-burnering issues that we need to deal with. This one causes me particular trouble, because untill we decide it I don\'t have a clue whether or not I\'m allowed to create certain items (ok, I\'m lazy. I don\'t particularly want to go back through work I\'ve already done correcting errors that could have been avoided with a little forethought. I have better things to do with my time.)\r\n\r\nM'),(472,'0a8142fd29','Some interesting threads from LotRO','Here\'s a very interesting proposal and some excellent commentary on an approach to leveling. A number of good ideas here.\r\n\r\n[url]http://forums.lotro.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=40844&page=1&pp=15[/url]\r\n\r\nAnd here are some interesting ideas on game design. Worth a read.\r\n\r\n[url]http://forums.lotro.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=40468[/url]'),(473,'45b9e047af','','I think the fear from haks is unfair and has no basis. I have used hundreds of haks in several games and had only minor problems if any at all.'),(474,'0f48a101b6','','It\'s not fear. I just view them as uneccesary and, frankly, a waste of time.\r\n\r\nM.'),(475,'1610340226','NWN 2','At last maybe some news.\r\n\r\n[url]http://www.rome-nwn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5427&highlight=[/url]'),(476,'3e402f548c','','On a different note, I just previewed some videos from LOTRO. These videos can be dowloaded at: \r\n\r\nhttp://www.ardapost.com/Game_News/p2_articleid/125\r\n\r\nI must say I was rather agreeably surprised. This is what they have, and probably there still will be a year before commericial release. NwN 2 will be facing some tough competition.'),(477,'5aba8a8186','','Difference is that NWN2 will be free (after purchase)...\r\n\r\nM'),(478,'3193fa0157','','[url]http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/neverwinternights2-1.php[/url]\r\n[url]\r\nhttp://www.nwn2news.net/modules/smartfaq/category.php?categoryid=1[/url]\r\n\r\n [quote:3193fa0157]More: It\'s not our FAQ, it\'s Rhomal\'s. While we \"started with\" the \"Aurora Engine\" many things have changed. The toolset has been complpetely rewritten...from scratch. Hence, there is no underlying Aurora Tool code or anything of that nature. The tool that will be used to \"build\" the game will be brand new. Electron is the new rendering engine and the same goes for it. It\'s 100% stand alone in the sense that it uses nothing from Aurora. Hope that clarifies.\r\n\r\n\r\nIt should also be noted that NWN2 uses a completely new graphics engine, currently called the Electron Graphics Engine. The models are rendered at a polycount of up to 3,000 with support for Sims 2-like face creation. \r\n[/quote:3193fa0157]\r\nfrom [url]http://www.rpgcodex.com/gamedetails.php?id=284[/url]\r\n\r\n[url]http://www.bitcheswithglitches.com/nwn/archives/neverwinter_nights_2/index.php[/url]\r\n\r\nand probably more than you want to know here:\r\n\r\n[url]http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/index.html?viewcat=24[/url]\r\n\r\n(I see that some of the fora have \'Dev Posts on the bioware site.\')'),(479,'ff83d6e0f9','','Great bit of research, Kara.\r\n\r\n\r\nThe following could be good news, that is, if they stick with what the developer says here:\r\n\r\n[quote:ff83d6e0f9]Urquhart: We are thinking about how to make it possible to import NWN1 community/user made content into NWN2 at pretty much every turn. I think it is going to be possible to import a great deal of the content, but probably not all. I\'m just being realistic here. My hope is that the amount of stuff that we will be able to import will then make it possible for modules to be touched up by the people who built them fairly quickly.\r\n\r\nUrquhart: We are going to be changing a lot of how the art assets work in the engine, so this will break the usage of the original NWN\'s art assets. However, we are going to be retaining a lot of how other things work, so things like scripts and dialogs (and many other types of content) will most likely run in the engine after an import process in the toolset[/quote:ff83d6e0f9]'),(480,'f7751e22e4','','Ok, I\'ll chime in with my 2 cp then as well :)\r\n\r\nI am a married lady in the mid-30\'s with 2 young children (ages 2.5 and 6).\r\n\r\nMy educational background is very basic: I hold a Bachelor\'s of Music Education with my main instrument being voice. I have studied under 4 different teachers, 2 of whom have had international careers in their younger years, and 2 of whom now hold Department Chair positions.\r\nI have performed in 5 different languages, and although I do not speak all 5, I can phonetically speak them and given time, can transalate them as well (this of course is a requirement). \r\n\r\nAlthough my educational background is classical music, specificially the Bel Canto method of singing, my first love is that of popular/secular music and musical theatre.\r\n\r\nI have performed in over 20 different musicals since I graduated 10 years ago, of those I was cast into a lead role 4 occasions, and have even been paid for some of them lol. I have appeared as an extra in one indy movie (hahaha), and one training video for Wendy\'s (of all places).\r\n\r\nI currently am writing and recording my first CD. I am working with a producer here in town, and we are currently on the third song of the album. I should have my first song completely mixed down within the next few weeks and can post a recording of it for you if you like.\r\n\r\nMy educational degree was used in.. yep the educational system. I taught in the inner city elementary schools for 5 years before taking time off to be with my children at home. I had over 700 students per year. I was nominated for a national award my first year of teaching and received a Teacher of the Month award my first year from the local media (some nice parent must have nominated me never found out whom).\r\n\r\nI directed - musically - 5 musicals in that time (yes with children ages 8 to 10), the acting direction was done by a friend and collegue. I also was the musical director for a local community theatre production (one was enough for me!). I also was responsible for a choir of over 50 children that gave at minimum, 2 concerts per year.\r\n\r\nI would venture to say that my strengths lie in my organizational skills, both with people and details. I am excellent at overseeing when I have a clear goal in sight - I can plot out how to get there and a time table to do so. Its the teacher in me.\r\n\r\nArtistically, I am a good singer, and have many contacts that I could pull into this venture, both on an amateur and professional level, unpaid and paid artists. Through my producer, I could most likely gain access to a larger group of artists to work on the musical aspects of this. I also know where to go to reach composers for the music on this project.\r\n\r\nComputer MMO\'s - well, I play them an awful lot lol. My background is as a player and I can offer advice that way. On the Muscial Design stage, I would say I would be the person who branches out to get the artists and composers we want on the project, I would be a participant, and could be a musical director for the project as well.\r\n\r\nWhat I lack is technical knowledge in programming ANY of this and also - I lack a large vision. I need a goal to steer toward even in this, otherwise I will brainstorm constantly and not pick an idea as the next idea would seem more fitting......\r\n\r\n\r\nTime: Is limited. I have kids, a husband, am active in church, am recording a cd, own my own jewelry business, and play games. I am willing to sacrifice, but I need someone to point me ina direction and/or tell me what can be done. I might add I know several programmers whoa re also avid mmo players, and one is even a musician - they would more than likely have their brains picked by me regarding this. Tolkien wise - huge fan.\r\n\r\nI realize this may be more detailed than you wish but hey I had 15 minutes so here you go.'),(481,'a348614f31','','Very cool idea, that also could be carried over into other aspects of the game.'),(482,'a2f9cee1f1','','I am not against the idea but I caution you all to avoid very long travel times, it gets frustrating to the average player.'),(483,'6ccf48d5af','Game system','Have you so far considered implementing anything from Pen and Paper RPG systems?'),(484,'f7c08657c4','','Basically, all to be known can be known here. One thing that isn\'t mentioned is different languages: That is on the to-do list, though the language code currently in use uses a simple replacement cipher.\r\n\r\nOh, and yes: Dying rules have been changed so that the character does not die at 0 hp, but in -10 hp.\r\n\r\n\"Pen and paper RPG systems\" is pretty wide as a term, might you like to line it down a bit?'),(485,'f26cfce4ff','','MERP, Lord of the Rings PnP?\r\n\r\nI like the later much, since magic is far more realistic and tolkienish than DnD. Like the Weariness system. To those who might not have heard of it: if you cast a spell, you spend Weariness points, which upon running out will stop you casting any spell. Resting recharges these points.'),(486,'5d4a33f0fa','','I\'m with you Lukaria. As far as game play goes...we must have a way to travel large distances without walking...If it takes me a week to get across the world...while awesome if I wanted to walk (btw I\'m all for having the option) If I really need to get there...there needs to be a way to get there within a few hrs.\r\n\r\nSo what we need is a way to create the effect of a \"port\" but definetly not have it be in the fasion of a port or teleport ect.\r\n\r\nWhat I propose is \"hiring\" a horse and buggy to take you along the road to your destination (ie. next town ect.) I\'m not sure if it would be best to just load the destination area or if you \'ride\' the buggy and wait to get there. Something akin to the Gryphon/hypogrph/bats ect...that are used in WoW for travel. In our case, they would be on the ground. \r\n\r\nAnyway, just mulling around some ideas...What do you guys think about it? Any refinments you can think of are welcome.'),(487,'859d81c655','','Anyone played Betrayal in Antara? (Or Betrayal in Krondor)\r\n\r\nAntara, in practice, took the \"magic teleports\" of BiK, and displayed them as wagons.\r\n\r\nAs far as I understand, you are going to design your own engine, so that would be a good spot for a cutscene, to avoid instant transportation.'),(488,'c332609c37','','Ah, practically like power points.\r\n\r\nSome of that is codeable, but in general, power points fit into D&D-based engine extremely unwell. (Hm, is that English or Newspeak? Double-plus-unwell?)\r\n\r\nSome features are doable, though many of the system changes will require balancing, and hence belong to the beta phase. In general, we could well do a few changes, but I am strongly in favor of keeping the base game system as-is, in order not to alienate players and to avoid problems posed by hybrid rules.\r\n\r\nIn PnP, hybrid rules work well, but we just have to accept the fact that in CRPG, we can\'t have a DM on all the time to resolve rule conflicts.\r\n\r\nOf course, if we\'d get an additional coder, these would become a lot more feasible to do. (Red, ask if Khamûl is busy/available/willing?)'),(489,'81a9f9df2e','','Does anyone have a copy of either of the above mentioned? I\'ve been meaning to get hold of them for some time now...\r\n\r\nOT: Yes, cutscenes are a decent cheat, but I\'m still not big on the idea of rapid transportation..\r\n\r\nM'),(490,'57c66ac9ba','','Betrayal at Krondor is freeware.\r\n\r\n[url]http://www.dimwood.net/[/url]'),(491,'5892632c37','','[quote:5892632c37]Of course, if we\'d get an additional coder, these would become a lot more feasible to do. (Red, ask if Khamûl is busy/available/willing?)[/quote:5892632c37]\r\n\r\nGot news from Godric that Khamul was unwilling to get involved in another Middle-Earth project at this point.'),(492,'fb23c4ddaf','','All right. Then, with this schedule we\'ve set (beta testing to start early December) I will get things done. The pace of advance will be rather, um, peaceful, but I\'ll get things done until then.'),(493,'47325732fe','','Ok, what about halving the number of spell slots per day for each class?'),(494,'b36c9c9c8f','C.E.P.','What is the point on CEP? \r\n\r\nI could only softly hint to the fact that the community\'s most populated RP servers almost without exception use CEP content. For some reason...'),(495,'f6a110da54','Next Meeting','Just as a reminder: we had tentatively scheduled our next meeting on IRC for this Sunday, September 24th at 9:00 AM (EST), 2 PM GMT. \r\n\r\nI, for one, will not be able to make it at that time (9AM EST) since I had made some plans for Saturday night. But if that time is fine with the rest of you (including Thargelion), then by all means join together and meet.\r\n\r\nThe other option, I guess, would be to meet at 11 AM (EST), 4 PM GMT.\r\nAnyhow, please suggest your personal preferences.'),(496,'45163e67e4','','Well, we already thought about having a caster level cap, which will significantly reduce the power of the casters. I do not see a need to reduce it further.'),(497,'9b516b28d1','','[url]http://www.hallsofimladris.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?t=59[/url]\r\n\r\nIf you don\'t know yet your username/password pair to the file server, just PM me.\r\n\r\nThe resolution on CEP, made short:\r\n\r\nCEP brings no additional functionality (well, it does bring Brownies and some other stuff we certainly do not want), only eye candy. As the purpose of this mod will be most significantly testing concepts for its future NWN2 counterpart, we decided upon not adding CEP.\r\n\r\nThe problem with CEP is that while it has a few placeables we could use, it has tons of stuff absolutely no use to us. And that\'s something which is not worth, what, 744 Mb of additional data to be used by the mod.\r\n\r\nI promised to have a look if there\'s a way to take what we want and leave the rest, but haven\'t had time - though, on the first glance, this does not seem to be the case.'),(498,'ebbf59b9dd','','Mabye we find a place inbetween instant and real time...Mabye I should put up a poll on how long you think it should take in real time to traverse Arda. Forget the poll thing, just post it here...\r\n\r\nI would say that I should be able to get from the main city on the west to the main city of the east in no more than an hr. Thoughts?'),(499,'c4fdce43d3','','More likely to be able to make a 16:00 GMT meeting, as I\'ll be down in london that morning and need to catch a train back. 14:00 GMT is definately out of the question. If you go for the other time then please accept my apologies, and could someone please send me the log.\r\n\r\nM'),(500,'5de4df2658','','I would of course prefer the 11 am (EST) option.'),(501,'b74457f832','','Very well, 1600 GMT is fine for me, as well. (11 AM EST)'),(502,'d38f851d8e','','Version 050923_1:\r\n\r\nDebugged some scripts, and preparing to script the character creation. Might even finish that later today.'),(503,'e3becbe98e','','16:00 GMT it is, then.'),(504,'9f6e46a7d0','Classes','I\'m actually a huge fan of djl\'s idea (see RoME forums). I think implementing it would make our server stand out from the rest. I know I much preferred Baldur\'s gate style character building, I think many others do too. Would there be any way to implement this?\r\n\r\nI am aware that many of you will think this too restrictive/ argue that people should have the freedom to do what they like within the game system/ whatever, but at least consider it first.\r\n\r\nI personally, think it would lead to greater co-operation between players (they need to to survive, really), which is something we ought to be encouraging. Also, would remove the skill dumping issue to a great extent, as you only have one (max two) classes anyway. Plus you don\'t get any of those annoying single levels... Again, just something to consider...\r\n\r\nMike'),(505,'8caebf4b33','','It would be possible to put a script on OnLevelUp event to check the classes. Complicated, yes, but possible. I have not personally played with 2nd Edition rules, so can\'t really tell how those went, but the limits needed would be the following:\r\n\r\nThe player may swap class once.\r\nOnce the player has swapped class, he may not return to his old class.\r\nSwapping to a prestige class can be done only at lv 10 or higher.\r\n\r\nHowever, I might note that while this is possible to script, if we want a rule on this, we\'d better formulate it as:\r\n- If you dual-class, you must take at least ten levels in both classes. (I.e. when you reach maximum level, you must have 10 levels or more in both classes)\r\n\r\nWhile this would allow swapping hence and forth within the two classes, it would in effect be very similar. Also, we might allow triple-classing, with a similar restriction, say, triple-classed character may have at most ten levels in any class (which would, at PC level cap 24, force at least four levels at a single class).\r\n\r\nHence, to get the whole picture, the possibilities would be:\r\n- Single class character (24 levels)\r\n- Dual-classed (14/10, 13/12 or 12/12)\r\n- Triple-classed (10/10/4, 8/8/8 or any combinations between the two. Possibly 15/5/4 if having Harper Scout prestige class)\r\n\r\nAnd yes, if we decide to raise the cap, the same rules would apply:\r\n- Single class (30)\r\n- Dual-class (20/10 to 15/15)\r\n- Triple class (10/10/10, in case of Harper Scout 15/10/5)\r\n\r\nOpinions?\r\n\r\nI do personally think that as complicated. If we want to limit powerbuilds taking only one level of a class, I\'d suggest we go for the \"you must have at least five levels of each class you have when you reach maximum level\" rule.'),(506,'909d552568','','As I wrote in the RoME forum, requiring single classes in order to encourage cooperation is fine if you can always count on someone to cooperate with. Unfortunately, in RoME or in our module, that\'s not a given. Not only may there be few people on, but even when there are quite a few, lore might prevdent partying or, sadly, so might personal antipathies.\r\n\r\nThat is to say, there will be times when most of us will need to solo, and some level of versatility would be needed. In fact, though, one level of a different class doesn\'t offend me. After all, anyone can have received some extra though limited training in a skill.\r\n\r\nI like some of Mith\'s alternatives better, but I still remain unconvinced of the value of making game-play more difficult. There will be powergamers no matter what we do. It\'s better to let them PG and include material (such as some of Gerald\'s quests) for those who would prefer to play in a different way.'),(507,'ebaf264510','','I do not like djl\'s suggestion. I think players should play how they wish to within the \'rules\'. Perhaps I am one of the select few who think this idea if put into a mod is totally not fun. Not fun=no playing, to me atleast. \r\n\r\nI would also like to touch on spell casters, yet again. (I know what you\'re thinking) \r\n As it is you are capping Sorcs, Wizards, Druids, Bards, Clerics to about level 15, no? Well, what about Ranger and Paladin? A 20th level Paladin is by far more powerful then a Cleric (yes, PvP talk, again) Clerics on the other hand are more balanced even in PvM, and PvP, they are nothing without their buffs, easily dispelled. This leads me to Rangers, the only useful thing about a Ranger is going 21 levels to get \"Bane of Enemies\". Well..if you are allowing a Ranger to get it\'s special power going BEYOND 15th, why not let a mage go to level 23 and get their Epic Mage Armor, or their 9th level spells at level 17. \r\n\r\nHere is what I suggest, with this spell caster cap: (which I must say I disagree with completely on a level 24 server.)\r\n\r\nCap-Cleric-16\r\nCap-Wizard-23\r\nCap-Sorcerer-23\r\nCap-Paladin-15 or 16\r\nCap-Druid-All the way to 24 as I see.\r\nCap-Ranger-21\r\nCap-Bard-All the way to 24 as I see.\r\n\r\nI do believe that covers all the spell casters. As I said above I am not in favor of a spell caster cap. But, I think if you do \'cap\' them they should be somewhat fun to play. And not favoring a class over another. To be more fair this is my opinion.\r\n\r\nThanks for your time.\r\n-Godric'),(508,'4ed1a64cb0','','Just offer the option....those that don\'t want it won\'t use it....\r\n\r\n\r\nLoA'),(509,'cfddf8dc19','','Please, keep it in the thread it belongs to.'),(510,'4e795e6a0e','','[quote:4e795e6a0e]I would also like to touch on spell casters, yet again. (I know what you\'re thinking)\r\nAs it is you are capping Sorcs, Wizards, Druids, Bards, Clerics to about level 15, no? Well, what about Ranger and Paladin? A 20th level Paladin is by far more powerful then a Cleric (yes, PvP talk, again) Clerics on the other hand are more balanced even in PvM, and PvP, they are nothing without their buffs, easily dispelled. This leads me to Rangers, the only useful thing about a Ranger is going 21 levels to get \"Bane of Enemies\". Well..if you are allowing a Ranger to get it\'s special power going BEYOND 15th, why not let a mage go to level 23 and get their Epic Mage Armor, or their 9th level spells at level 17.\r\n\r\nHere is what I suggest, with this spell caster cap: (which I must say I disagree with completely on a level 24 server.)\r\n\r\nCap-Cleric-16\r\nCap-Wizard-23\r\nCap-Sorcerer-23\r\nCap-Paladin-15 or 16\r\nCap-Druid-All the way to 24 as I see.\r\nCap-Ranger-21\r\nCap-Bard-All the way to 24 as I see.\r\n\r\nI do believe that covers all the spell casters. As I said above I am not in favor of a spell caster cap. But, I think if you do \'cap\' them they should be somewhat fun to play. And not favoring a class over another. To be more fair this is my opinion.\r\n\r\nThanks for your time.\r\n-Godric[/quote:4e795e6a0e]\r\nI haven\'t had time to have the look at the relative power of different spellcasters, but certainly, I would cap Mages lower. And Druids. What is the purpose of letting them go up to Epic levels, when everything they could get there is nerfed? To make them harder to dispell? Remeber, the other casters to dispel them have caps as well, so that argument bears no relation to what we are doing.\r\n\r\nEpic Bard is the single most powerful spellcaster I can imagine, while Rangers I\'d perhaps allow to go on uncapped. As another reminder, it is not that the development of the caster character stops at the cap: The player does have the option to multiclass. If he/she wills to make a pure caster, then a 12 wiz / 12 sorc build will give him/her rather many spells per day.\r\n\r\nAnd again, I do greatly advice that we leave this until we have empirical information: Balance issues should be dealt with in the beta test, it is good enough that we have something to build on.\r\n\r\nNote: I do recognize the need to balance the caster cap - and yes, while I do not agree your opinion, Godric, I do value it.'),(511,'b71e25c7b1','','[quote:b71e25c7b1=\"Fidelio\"]Kara and I have agreed that assigning different favoured classes on the basis of gender difference is not a good idea. Gender inequality/distinctions/stereotypes are already rife, and even in the most progressive of societies. No need to make such distinctions in game.[/quote:b71e25c7b1]\r\nHoME vol. 10 The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Laws and Customs among the Eldar.\r\n\r\nMost modern societies are democracies. I say we ditch this \"High King\" and call Fingon \"Secretary-General of the United Nations\". President Thingol of Doriath sounds good, as well. Morgoth\'s going to cause some problems, though. Perhaps we could call him \"Führer\"?\r\n\r\n...\r\n\r\nAgain, once more: How limitative are those favoured classes? Referencing to RoME, how many of you does play an elven wizard (wizard being the standard favoured class)?\r\n\r\n...\r\n\r\nRace alignments:\r\nElves: Non-evil\r\nDwarves: Hm, I don\'t remember? Non-chaotic?\r\nHumans: Any.\r\nEdain (half-elves): Non-evil\r\nOrcs: Evil only'),(512,'1ade162e3b','','As an additional note on my nicks:\r\nThe nick \"Mithfindel\" is always there, unless the FTP server is disconnected. (Yep, I use the server to run my IRC client, as well.)\r\nHowever, I am more likely to be present when \"MithGaim\" is around. In any case, \"Mithfindel\" will log things, so what you message to that nick, I will always be able to read.'),(513,'bb3fc6be1f','','Mith\'s level system idea won\'t work. Take the max 5 levels of Harpers for one example.\r\n\r\nThe other, may prestige classes require such a lot of things that cannot be reached within the above given limits. Not in NwN. In Baldur\'s Gate, it works well, but not here. Messing with it will result in more inbalance issues to be fixed than we have currently. That is a luxury we cannot afford, yesno?\r\n\r\nI think all we need is to log on a hundred other well-populated server and steal any good level system ideas they use. \r\n\r\nThe multiclassing-prohibition under level 10 is a fine idea, which is used by Anphillia Blackheart already. For one thing.'),(514,'472b19dcb7','','[quote:472b19dcb7=\"Mithfindel\"]Race alignments:\r\nElves: Non-evil\r\nDwarves: Hm, I don\'t remember? Non-chaotic?\r\nHumans: Any.\r\nEdain (half-elves): Non-evil\r\nOrcs: Evil only[/quote:472b19dcb7]\r\n\r\nHowever I value these alignment-settings, I do not agree with them. Many examples of evil Elves, too many. Many examples of chaotic, selfish Dwarves, too many. *sorry*\r\n\r\n------------\r\n\r\nAlso, I do not see the difference between certain Noldorin factions that would qualify as a basis of different favoured classes, like these:\r\nFeanor: Sorc or Cleric\r\nFingolfin: Wiz or Pally\r\nFinarfin: Bard or Cleric \r\n\r\nI would only stick to Paladins (Sorcerer, Wizard) for all Noldorin.\r\n\r\n------------\r\n\r\nFinally, what about Shifters?'),(515,'a49f3e6048','','I do agree that that was too complicated, yet it would be easier to do than the suggested one. Multiclassing limitation to level 10 could be easily enforced, as could be the minimum of five levels per class limitation.'),(516,'0d38d87e5f','','Shifters being a no-no. Besides of Balrogs, we wouldn\'t see anything close to elementals around Beleriand, and we sure aren\'t allowing anyone to play a Balrog.\r\n\r\nPaladin as a favoured class to all? So all elves are warrior-healers? Admittedly, choosing a proper favoured class to Fëanorians was troublesome, but otherwise...\r\n\r\nAnd yes, I originally suggested that certain elves could be evil, but it was a common wish that the alignment on good-evil axis would be a team designation. Hence, no evil elves, unless someone is able to mention an elf willingly working for the Enemy, preferably in canon.\r\n\r\nFor Dwarves, I don\'t remember an agreement. Currently, Dwarves are capped in no way.\r\n\r\n(And yes, the original favoured classes I suggested for Noldor were based followingly:\r\n\r\nFingolfin, male: Knights from the Blessed Realm - Paladins\r\nFemale: Having a bit more focus on healing - Clerics\r\n\r\nFëanorians: Powerful in the use of the skills related to their fëa, hence sorcerer. Also, perhaps a bit more eager to use means shunned by the other elves to gain their goals.\r\n\r\nFinarfin: After Finrod, who with his brothers is perhaps the sole example of a Noldo belonging to House of Finarfin (perhaps not counting Glorfindel, who might, as well), I chose Bard.\r\n\r\nAnyway, I am, of course, open for suggestions.\r\n\r\nGalengil suggested that all Noldo factions should have Paladin as their favoured class. Other opinions?\r\n\r\nNote that the idea of favoured class is strictly against multiple favoured classes per same person. So, then I\'d rather put favoured class: Any, but that yet again makes picking Human less useful. Hence, I\'d very much like having a favoured class on our \"more advanced\" races.\r\n\r\nAlso, I yet again remind you that favoured class means rather little. It does not limit the players into anything.'),(517,'171ab2c78e','From RoME','The folllowing is from builder/admin PwN :wink: \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nLearning the NWN toolset would be a good start, but there will probably be definite changes in the NWN2 toolset so any work done might not transfer over. The developers of NWN2 have been vague so far about how much compatibility the two would have. \r\n\r\nProbably more important than building a base mod in NWN1 toolset would be to begin organizing ideas about how you(they) want your server to run once NWN2 comes online. Start making decisions about what sort of features you plan on including, quests, etc. \r\n\r\nGather together a small group of builders and developers that each bring a special talent to the project. This is key. You will need a wide range of skills to pull of running a decent server. \r\n\r\nAs far as the concept of the server goes, it sounds interesting but I will offer a cautionary note now. First Age themed modules in theory sound like they would be quite interesting, but keep in mind the player base that will know these obscure histories will be quite limited. Which might be a good thing depending on what you are trying to do. \r\n\r\nIf you want a small group of dedeicated Tolkienites to roleplay First Age stuff with, probably good. However you will also get a lot of players who don\'t have a clue about the history of this period and this will create some problems. \r\n\r\nThink about how many players there have been on Middle Earth themed server such as RoME, set in the late Third Age, where a good number of players are clueless as the history of Middle Earth. And this is a time period that a very popular series of books has been written, even blockbuster movies. The First Age has The Silmarillion for a refernce point, and a series of hastily thrown together books consisting of accumulated letters and such. The number of people who have read these things is very small by comparison. \r\n\r\nI am not trying to persuade you against this project, just pointing out some of the difficulties. It sounds like it would be a fun project, but not something I am really interested in working on. \r\n\r\nWhen NWN2 is released, if I get involved with another project, it will be one which takes full advantage of the NWN2 toolset, spells, classes, races, skills, feats, etc. I would want to develop for a PW where there are no artificial restrictions based on written works. \r\n\r\nI am not certain what that means now, but most likely it will mean using an original, well-developed setting as a base. The key here will be well-developed. Not hastily thrown together. \r\n\r\nNWN2 is probably about 1/2 year away, so I still have some time to think things over. \r\n\r\nBut back to your question. If you guys need any help or assistance, let me know and I will see what I can offer. I am just not able to commit to any projects right now.'),(518,'86a37c5528','','I pretty much agree with PwN\r\n\r\nso are we aimed for and only for those who has Tolkien lore ?\r\n\r\nNot that i have anything against it as i have played in mod ( private ME )\r\nlike that before.\r\n\r\n\r\nany thoughts ?'),(519,'ecfd26d0ca','','Yes, the main target is those who know things.\r\n\r\nHowever, I don\'t think that those who know very little are a burden. At the basic level, it is absolutely the same whether we are in Beleriand or Littlemagicelflandia, if we can get the game mechanics to work. At least there\'s some time since the movies, so perhaps the movie effect on how people think about Middle-earth has diminished a bit. Which, in this case, I find to be a good thing.\r\n\r\nAlso, the less the player base knows about the time and area the mod is located in, the more freedom we have to interprete it on our ways, and the less we get notes about \"I think this should be done that way\". Very well, if we get a whining Tolkienite on board, it will be a problem. (So better recruit them as builders, no offense to anyone.)'),(520,'340c1075b4','','Comment #1:\r\n\r\n[quote:340c1075b4]Most modern societies are democracies. I say we ditch this \"High King\" and call Fingon \"Secretary-General of the United Nations\". President Thingol of Doriath sounds good, as well. Morgoth\'s going to cause some problems, though. Perhaps we could call him \"Führer\"? [/quote:340c1075b4]\r\n\r\nIf your concern is realistic differentiation between genders, I am of the opinion that we should differentiate all the way. With the possible exception of Galadriel, there were no elven female fighters. Most females, in fact, would probably have been confined to healing, raising children, or indulging in the arts. Certainly none of them would be seen travelling in the open wilds, with sword and shield. So my suggestion is: no female adventurers. Oh, and yes, give them -2 to str to from the start.\r\n\r\nKidding aside, I think (and I am sure that you all agree) that this is a minor point. Even more so, in fact, as it concerns \"favoured classes.\" Kara, at its mention, seemed slightly uncomfortable with it, so I presumed gendered differences might inconvenience some female players. \r\n\r\nBut, hey, follow your nose on this one. I won\'t make this my battle.\r\n----------------------------------\r\nComment #2:\r\n\r\n[quote:340c1075b4]Galengil suggested that all Noldo factions should have Paladin as their favoured class[/quote:340c1075b4]\r\n\r\nPlausible. I, however, am a fan of variety. Call it class-based elven multi-culturalism. Very hip.\r\n----------------------------------\r\nComment #3:\r\n\r\n[quote:340c1075b4]Fingolfin, male: Knights from the Blessed Realm - Paladins \r\nFemale: Having a bit more focus on healing - Clerics \r\n\r\nFëanorians: Powerful in the use of the skills related to their fëa, hence sorcerer. Also, perhaps a bit more eager to use means shunned by the other elves to gain their goals. \r\n\r\nFinarfin: After Finrod, who with his brothers is perhaps the sole example of a Noldo belonging to House of Finarfin (perhaps not counting Glorfindel, who might, as well), I chose Bard. [/quote:340c1075b4]\r\n\r\nThis is fine, I think. \r\n\r\nPerhaps barbarian might also be thrown in as a favoured class for Feanorians. Not to underscore that they were uncouth, rag-clad nitwits given to excessive frothing at the mouth. Nooo. But barbarian can also make a nice alternative to the \"Holy Wrath of the Eldar\" thingie we commonly associate with paladins (Celeromo is an example). In the case of Feanorians, \"thundering rage\" might also imply a susceptibility to fall prey to blinding, driven anger. Just a suggestion, though. Few players choose to play barbs anyways. Sorc is a good choice, too.'),(521,'f94aeb6e69','','Your reasoning is terse, Red, perhaps too terse. It has left me thoroughly unconvinced. :lol: \r\n\r\nGiven the rather limited scope and timeframe of the current mod, however, I agree that we don\'t need to make this slightly dysfunctional hak an issue. \r\n\r\nNot to mention that- with the exception of Galengil and myself- it really didn\'t seem to get anyone excited. Galengil, you are on your own, brotha.\r\n\r\nI give up.'),(522,'2dbf77711d','','There is a theoretical difference, however, between: (a) creating a Sil-based mod for hardcore Tolkienites only; and (b) creating a Sil-based for a Tolkienites but which also suits a more general audience. (A) is certainly more lore-heavy. A Tolkien linguist\'s delight, so to speak. Kinda like you need a Phd in Tolkien to play that mod. I think we should go for (b), though allow for (a) moments .\r\n\r\n\r\nI am hopeful that creating a lore-based mod will act as a filter against your endemic \"Legolas UbarL33t on a skateboard\" morons.\r\n\r\n\r\nFor those who know less about Tolkien, the mod can however be an opportunity to learn about the ancient history of Middle-Earth. \r\n\r\n\r\nI think we should simply focus on creating an amazing mod. If the mod is amazing, finding players will not be a problem. \r\n\r\n\r\nPush comes to shove, we can always run continuous web-advertisement on the LOTRO main webpage.'),(523,'050518ab40','','If the cap is to be level 20 (as we discussed), then I think it would make more sense to place the multiclassing cap at level 5 (3?). Not that we\'d be doing the players a favour in so doing. Assuming a 20th level cap, triple classed characters (all minimum 5th level) will make rather awful builds, methinks...'),(524,'64abd05dfa','','Yes. If we choose to have epic levels off-limits, things become much more simple. Perhaps minimum of four levels per class, no other limits? (That\'s 20% of total, and that way those classes which get AB bonuses every second level can get \"even\" levels in that sense?)'),(525,'62311eb91f','','Then my reasoning seems to have been effective enough...\r\n\r\nM'),(526,'385872a646','','Also get green light about scripts...\r\n\r\n\'so what scripts we need ?\r\n\r\nsend me a list an will forward that'),(527,'bdda4aa849','','Had a short discussion with Tharg last night on MSN. Since his access to internet is currently limited, I thought I\'d post his comments here:\r\n\r\n[quote:bdda4aa849]\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nWell, I was rather interested in the points raised in the last meeting.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI would shift an emphasis from highly developed cities, etc... in favour of a well developed and balanced set of adventuring areas.\r\ntrip to Seoul... and as one of three Canadian officers in all of Korea, I received an invite.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nWe had thought of holding the meetings at 9 AM (est), or 10 PM in Korea.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nCan\'t make it?\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\n...once my home wireless is set up, 10PM Sundays will be perfect.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nGreat.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nThough I shall be honest, as long as those logs are sent, I can still make plenty of commentary.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nYeah, at this phase we are really more about testing ideas, I suppose.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nThat would be great.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nWell... one point we cannot allow ourselves to fall short in is this:\r\nAt this point... we can only have one well developed \'city\'.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nMy original designs were. While they looked great in the toolset, they fell short in terms of playability.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nCities are simply places to grab supplies and sell loot from the perspective of most players\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nLords can be standing with their guards before gates and such.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nExactly.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nAlso... I found the priorities a bit off balanced for starting areas.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nFar too much emphasis on the Brethil triangle.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI suggest to Mithfindel that we make a crescent\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nMost action happens in front of Eithel Sirion (or whatever that fortress is called) in front of Mithlum... in an arc including Brethil, Dorthonion, the haunted area south of Dorthonion, and the Feanorian hills.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nNargothrond increases in significance from an adventurers standpoint in the later phases.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nThe south is nice, but hardly offers much for adventure.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nAye.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nAs balance and such are my specialties from working in Rome \r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\n...I will make certain that is my prime goal in this project.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI also noticed there was conversation regarding shifters.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\n...I must say that allowing them in the game will not be an asset.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI would also strongly push for the exclusion of monks (and possibly shadowdancers).\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\n(one moment)\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI utterly despise monks and hold shadowdancers in complete contempt.\r\nIndeed it is.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI cannot remember your stance on the morality issue.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nThe \"Evil Elves\"\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nAgainst it.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nAye.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nThat is why a small but well developed module is the way to go.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nIncluding all sorts of useless cities is... useless.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nThat is why I was surprised we did not include the Halls of Maedhros as a starting point.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nSince humans, elves and dwarves (just not Sindar) can start there.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nAye... sort of a test run.\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nAlso... there is nothing that says we cannot use existing work on areas and give them different names.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nFor example, parts of Nargothrond could easily be assigned to Himring.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nI think the area plan grew somewhat organically. I started taking on the West, Mith Doriath and the lands east. The south, mind you, might be a fertile spot for lower level adventurers.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nIf we keep in mind the notion of \"concentric circles of difficulty\" and such.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nYeah... but a fertile area for low level adventurers can be satisfied by simply ensuring that areas close to settlements are geared to lower level PCs\r\n\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nYeah.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nThat is why I would favour Brethil and Himring as starting communities (and keeping them both at 2-3 areas each).\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nTwo over three, if I could offer my wisdom.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nGood point. Yes, the starting areas do need to be limited.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nOne area for exteriors, one for interiors... then we can focus on making a worthwhile countryside with properly scaled encounters.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nBelieve me... anyone can sit around and spend 200 hours making a pile of beautiful areas, but in the end, they are a wasted endevour.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nAbsolutely.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nGoodness... it was months after Minas Tirith was added to Rome that I ever actually spent time there.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nAll those environmental effects, such as sounds and such were lovely... but after you hear them once, it is just another drag on the processer.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nYes, I think we\'ve that the emphasis should be on better balanced, adventurable areas, as opposed to eye-candy *nods*\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nQuests too. We\'ve already discussed implementing a number of \'diplomatic quests\'\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI liked that idea.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nWhich would bring to life the political setting that was prevalent at the time.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nRecover/Slay/Diplomacy.... I think we should focus on dividing quests fairly evenly between the three.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nYes.\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nOh... I am sorry. My class starts in a few minutes and I need to have a smoke.\r\n\r\nGerald dit :\r\nHah, last thing. \r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice? dit :\r\nI will start working on areas though after work tonight... and I simply mean with pen and paper.[/quote:bdda4aa849]'),(528,'f60e76e86d','','I think this half year till NwN 2 arrives is pretty much a short time to achieve anything. \r\n\r\n*counting the number of weekends when I have time to work on the mod*\r\n\r\nNah.... I think NwN 2 guys will add 3D areas, new communication and reaction system [which is kind a simple via these NwN1 discussions (choose 1 or 2 for the answer)], a new combat-system maybe, but all of the items, characters, world item\'s textures and polygonal structures will be different. I would like to stop thinking about NwN2 wont be incompatible with NwN1 at all.\r\n\r\nInstead and bearing in mind this thought:\r\n\r\nI think, planning the NwN 2 server could be the first and foremost priority, and maybe testing this and that in NwN 1 could be 2nd.\r\n\r\nI would also stick to First Age, some people are sick with Minas Tirith vs Sauron - setting, they would surely like an other - if not totally another - world, from Tolkien.\r\n\r\nAlso we would get far more freedom in the earlier setting.'),(529,'c1238b0d55','','I would like to offer this matter into your attention:\r\n\r\n\r\nThere will always be a weakest and a strongest class or build. It always happens. Someone should stand at both sides of a row if a row is formed. \r\n\r\nSo, we could never ever kill the strongest class. Ever.\r\n\r\nWhat we could do is to elect more and more \"strongest\" builds or let\'s call it possiblities, or reduce the differences between the stronger ones or between the weakest and the strongest one.\r\n\r\nThis is difficult, and needs an awful lot of testing. But evolution will be and players will work hours after hours to bring up an other über build. It is in human nature, so therefore additional adjustments are needed on the way. \r\n\r\nSo, I came to the point where everything can be changed or amended in the future, so no stress, really. 8)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nChaps at Bioware built up a system. Which is more than good on the balance issue. It has also flaws. \r\n\r\nBut meddling in too deep and you got the balances all thrown up. \r\n\r\nElminating the flaws should be the thing anyone would wish for. \r\n\r\n\r\nChaps at Bioware will give us a new system. With more flaws than the first one. \r\n\r\nYet, we could try out new dimensions with the reducing of spellcaster\'s role or weight. But only to test things out. To see how this could work in NwN2.\r\n\r\nYesno?'),(530,'6c5b3bcb3e','','I have given up too, because I see no point of it. The hakpak will be the past in half of a year.\r\n\r\nBut the experience seeing the Elves taller than mortal human maggots stays with me forever...'),(531,'e36b83f2f4','','Only one question remains:\r\n\r\nAnyone for tennis, wouldn\'t that be nice?'),(532,'f6c1f09f06','','I need 2 weekends at the least to come up with something visually and morally acceptable. On Hithlum, that is. But be warned, I am ready to do anything. Even a chili and hot-dog vendor run by Morgoth Corp.\r\n\r\nTell me again, which is the exact First Age year of the first mod? Thanks.'),(533,'2177f0491e','','Scripts coming into mind:\r\n-Vault\r\n-Binding (easy, but saves work)\r\n-Oxen (If vault system does not behave well with BioDB, just make oxen \"pages\" or \"servant boys\" and make sure they do not leave town. Should be easy to make, as well, but saves work.)\r\n\r\nAnyone else having something in mind?'),(534,'eb8a989e6d','','456, just after Dagor Bragollach.'),(535,'5696df3118','','Yes. And remember: We don\'t need to figure it all out by ourselves.\r\n\r\nThat\'s what we do have the beta testing perioid, to let the players figure out.\r\n\r\nAnd, true: Lots of things will change in NWN2, some things will stay.'),(536,'f4ee7ac342','','Just a few thoughts astray:\r\n\r\nbetter to encourage RP and introduce players situations solvable only through RP.\r\n\r\nThis may sound fuzzy, but hey.\r\n\r\nThe other one: to reward long sentences with 1 xp per line. Of course everything can be logged and spammers (Angy comes to mind....) punished.\r\n\r\nXp reward (again 1 or 2 per Turn) for standing in \"safe-havens\" and doing nothing. It really does not do much, but no harm may come out of it. \r\n\r\nAlso, granting xp for reaching and/or staying in \"historical\" places like the desolation of Dagor Bragollach, places of horror, and evlish lands for Orcs. Or maybe only fame points, but something which is done automaticly.\r\n\r\nAlso, some quests should take a path which \"accidentally\" lead through enemy territory or dangerois places, where, there is two roads possible:\r\nthrough battle (should be [b:f4ee7ac342]very[/b:f4ee7ac342] risky) or by sneaking or by speed.\r\n\r\nComing to which I think the spell Haste should be nerfed alltogether. It has a brutally destructive aspect towards RP. Expeditious Speed is acceptable, I think, but not Haste. It lasts too long.'),(537,'7fe592ae6c','','Haste and Expeditious Retreat last equally long. (round/level)\r\n\r\nIt\'s just that Expeditious Retreat is gained earlier, so when it is commonly used, the caster does not have that many levels.'),(538,'aec318fbb0','','Using a horse as a speed way to travel (via a cut scene for example) imo takes away from the danger of travel itself. If I can get to any place that has a stable/buggy etc.. then I can get to any other place with the same and there is no risk. Its like Amtrak... :(\r\n\r\nCeleb'),(539,'8bcdbd786f','','\'Retreat doesn\'t add AC bonus though?\r\n\r\nM'),(540,'5ef2fe36f0','','Celebmirtan,\r\nI dont disagree with you. From a design stand point, this is a decision we have to make early and I\'m glad we are having it now. Also, if we have no method of \"quick\" travel, it greatly impacts the rest of the game. We [i:5ef2fe36f0]could[/i:5ef2fe36f0] make it work...but like I said...This is one of those things that will greatly impact how the game works and plays. I am not conceeding that we shouldnt have a faster form of travel, I would like to hear more about what the rest of you think. \r\n\r\nOne possibility that I\'ll throw in right now...Once you obtain a horse, you can ride much faster than you can walk. So, if you were riding across the \'world\'. Mabye it can be done in...3-4 or more hrs? In game this could be equivalent to (many many many) day/night cycles? Thoughts?\r\n\r\nWhile I\'m on the path, have you considered how you want communication to happen? Will there be no /tell? How long would a \'letter\' take to get somewhere? I say that at some point the \'realism\' has to be broken simply because we are in an online world where you cant play 24/7 to grow relationships with other players and have months to sit around waiting for letters to be sent back. Perhaps there is no /tell system but mail arrives in a reasonable amount of time. 5 minutes? A day? What do you guys think?'),(541,'af8a4b0697','','I see no reason to nerf haste. It doesn\'t last all that long even at a high level, and we can consider it equivalent to a shot of adrenalin.'),(542,'19fe0d60fe','','[quote:19fe0d60fe]The other one: to reward long sentences with 1 xp per line. Of course everything can be logged and spammers (Angy comes to mind....) punished. [/quote:19fe0d60fe]\r\n\r\nGood writing does not amount to writing long, flowing sentences. For a clear demonstration of this, read Albert Camus L\'Étranger (the Stranger), one of greatest books written in the 20th century, and a jewel of French literature. Very short sentences, exploding with intensity. The name of Bertrand Russel also comes to mind.\r\n\r\n[quote:19fe0d60fe]Xp reward (again 1 or 2 per Turn) for standing in \"safe-havens\" and doing nothing. It really does not do much, but no harm may come out of it. [/quote:19fe0d60fe]\r\n\r\nNot a bad idea, but I think it opens the door to exploits. Example: I log on, go to bed, wake up the next morning, go to the computer, and realize I have accumulated enough xp to level. Exploiters are rife, beware of them, they are a supremely evil race, and the true children of Morgoth ;)\r\n\r\n[quote:19fe0d60fe]Also, granting xp for reaching and/or staying in \"historical\" places like the desolation of Dagor Bragollach, places of horror, and evlish lands for Orcs. Or maybe only fame points, but something which is done automaticly.[/quote:19fe0d60fe]\r\n\r\nI think we had already discussed granting \"exploration points\" especially for low-levels or for characters entering an area for the first time. Too lazy to check the logs of the first meeting, but I think all those present at the time seemed to think it was a cool idea.\r\n\r\n[quote:19fe0d60fe]Coming to which I think the spell Haste should be nerfed alltogether. It has a brutally destructive aspect towards RP. Expeditious Speed is acceptable, I think, but not Haste. It lasts too long.[/quote:19fe0d60fe]\r\n\r\nGood suggestion. I am actually open to nerfing haste, though I\'d be cautious and put this idea through the beta-testing phase. *\r\n\r\n* tries to remember the last time I witnessed some silly monk/sorcerer run past me* \r\n\r\nHaste strikes me more than a simple adrenalin push. Strikes me more as being akin to watching Anakin Skywalker zoom by me on a lightspeeder. Definitely doesn\'t do much for maintaining a notion of believability.\r\n\r\nOne of the reasons people use haste is actually to cross areas more quickly. I do it myself. But NWN2 is supposed to include the possibility of horses. That would solve the problem, methinks.'),(543,'bea3a07d8b','','Sorry for the delay regarding this, Qrizz. I\'ve been wanting to brainstorm a bunch of ideas, which then Mith could take a look at and filter, as his understanding of mechanics is far better than mine.\r\n\r\nBut I simply haven\'t had the time. Will do so by the end of the weekend. It\'s probably more effective, in the end, to approach the devs just once and with a full of list of the scripts needed, than it would be to approach them on several occasions, with a specific requirement everytime.'),(544,'7c12ebfb29','','thats ok, in my point of wiev thers no rush.. as i am aiming for nwn2 8 or some other game) to make this happen..\r\n been also been busy ingame...\r\n\r\nbut lets keep it rollin'),(545,'d51509f450','','[quote:d51509f450=\"Fidelio\"]\r\nOne of the reasons people use haste is actually to cross areas more quickly. I do it myself. But NWN2 is supposed to include the possibility of horses. That would solve the problem, methinks.[/quote:d51509f450]\r\n\r\nI use Haste gain +4 AC and a bonus atatck on first AB. \r\n\r\nBut really, except (mayhap) Fingolfin\'s charge (he was on a horse, though) against Angband, how could you define Haste in Beleriand?'),(546,'e6bfe27acb','Various, creature related.','Playing in Dm client, figured it\'s not ready for pcs yet:\r\n\r\nOrcs of the long tooth/ broken maw are currently set to faction: defender.\r\n\r\nNeither decay when killed.\r\n\r\nOne wonders why the long tooth scouts have animal empathy, can someone explain the logic behind that?\r\n\r\nNoticing a prevalence of \'blind fight\' and \'improved crit.\' among creatures. Maybe something not to let get out of hand?\r\n\r\nAlso, we seem to have most of our creatures within the same CR range, A more even spread would be better.. Small things like widening the level gap between orc archer and marksman (level 7 & 8 rogue, respectively) would help.\r\n\r\nM\r\n\r\nEdit: although I found the sight of Fegalund beating the hell out of a Feanorian, it probably isn\'t good diplomacy. Check the elvish factions arn\'t hostile to each other.'),(547,'5045033c3e','','The elven factions should not be hostile to each other, but I\'ll check that.\r\n\r\nAnimal empathy and lots of improved crit sounds like a ranger/fighter generated by the toolset (yes, the toolset has auto-levelups).\r\n\r\nI\'ll check that faction stuff - you sure there weren\'t any area of effect spells or such? Builders, I suggest checking your NPCs/monsters right on creation that the toolset hasn\'t assigned them anything you don\'t need, or again, made them plain crap. (The toolset has the tendency of giving out longsword focus, for example.)'),(548,'5cf0e75b51','','Let me say real quick before I have to log off. Matt, mail can work, but I would say only in civilized areas and within a local region. No mail from Mirkwood to the Shire. Maybe, mail within the Shire and parts of Arthendain, albeit delayed the farther one sends something. \r\n\r\nHaving a horse would or should speed up the travel process, but in turn it should also add a layer of responsibility for the player: e.g., feeding, and caring for the animal which are skills that can come into play. Better one is in say animal care, the more you can get out of your horse. Also it would be nice to tie in the leather worker (saddles/bits/bridel etc) and the smith (shoes and other things) that a horse requires. In a way, emphasising some realism allows for us to use other skills from other types of characters so they have just as much importance in the world aside from hack & slashing.\r\n\r\nCeleb..\r\n\r\nMore later Matt as I can'),(549,'249f651638','','Ah, that was another thing, many creatures and NPCs had two (2) weapon focuses, and 2 specializations.\r\n\r\nWill test again to make sure it wasn\'t a spell effect.\r\n\r\nM\r\n\r\nEdit: Tested, wasn\'t a spell effect (used non-casters where able).\r\n\r\nFaction: Doriath wasn\'t hostile to any other elven faction (check scripts are attached?)\r\nFaction: Feanor was hostile to Fingolfin and Finarfin\r\nFaction: Finarfin was hostile to Fingolfin and Feanor\r\nFaction: Fingolfin was hostile to Feanor and Finarfin\r\n\r\nCan check with dwarves etc if needed.'),(550,'bcdc76a645','','The trouble with too much realism is that it quickly becomes tedious. \r\n\r\nM'),(551,'fbfa3044b1','','[quote:fbfa3044b1]Orcs of the long tooth/ broken maw are currently set to faction: defender[/quote:fbfa3044b1]\r\n\r\nI created these orcs. Haven\'t had the time to brush up on these little mishaps. \r\n\r\n[quote:fbfa3044b1]\r\nNeither decay when killed.[/quote:fbfa3044b1]\r\n\r\nYup. Will fix this.\r\n\r\n[quote:fbfa3044b1]One wonders why the long tooth scouts have animal empathy, can someone explain the logic behind that?[/quote:fbfa3044b1]\r\n\r\nThat scout-like orc is a 21st level ranger. \r\n\r\nComputer threw in some animal empathy points, which I thought of removing. Didn\'t end up doing it though, as a scout like this might very well have crebains to gather intelligence. In the end, though, this stealthy orc was mainly meant to be used as a dm-possessed character.\r\n\r\n[quote:fbfa3044b1]Ah, that was another thing, many creatures and NPCs had two (2) weapon focuses, and 2 specializations[/quote:fbfa3044b1]\r\n\r\nYes, I may have forgotten or didn\'t have the time to remove some of these. \r\n\r\nI generally make my creatures on the \"difficult\" side of the spectrum. Why? Because the AI is abominably stupid. So the extra little brawn usually helps balance things out.\r\n\r\n[quote:fbfa3044b1]\r\nfaction stuff[/quote:fbfa3044b1]\r\n\r\nI logged on last week (I really forget when exactly) and had a little fight between Finrod and some Feanorian characters. If the server hasn\'t been rebooted, it might be that this hostile behaviour is still registered. Certainly when I did log, Finrod seemed to be rather well-behaved. Might want to do a reboot before going through a thorough analysis of the faction scripts.'),(552,'8f3715da28','','Yes, the faction table shows them all friendly to each other... I thought about such. Rebooting server now. (0720 UTC, Tue 04)'),(553,'c6131aeacc','','You may want to fix the decay on all your creatures, then. Noticed the Nargothrond rangers and the wyrms didn\'t decay either, so it might be worth checking them all.\r\n\r\nM'),(554,'02f5cb4c5b','','Spoke with Tharg the other day. One of his comments was to the effect that too much emphasis is currently placed on the Brethil Triangle (inculding Doriath). He suggested, rather, that we focus action and development on the Feanorian Hills, sweeping like a crescent to include north Brethil, and then back up north toward Eithel Sirion. \r\n\r\nWould like to hear sme feedback from ou guys on this.\r\n\r\nWe discussed limiting the mod to 2 starting areas. I agree with this idea. \r\nOmitting the Sindar, pretty much all races could justifiably be made to start in the Feanorian hills. Nargothrond too (including Sinda). Please give your feedback.'),(555,'eec2da2b85','','Fishing is a possibility. I like fishing in RoME. I caught a 22-inch carp the other with my new character, \"Farmer Giles.\"\r\n\r\nMaybe some of the cooking scripts. Maybe. *rubs temples and tries to think more*'),(556,'e351190091','','Cooking is part of the CNR script set, and falls under crafting. But, fishing is a good idea.\r\n\r\nEDIT: Now that I remember - the anti-relog cheat script would be handy, as well. (Script preventing casters to get spells back after relogging.)'),(557,'cdfe59bdfc','','Actually, I did discuss with Tharg, but that\'s some time earlier.\r\n\r\nAnyone to build March of Maedhros?'),(558,'7de62391f9','','As far as my NPCs go, I haven\'t actually touched those settings (at least that I\'d remember) so that\'s the reason they don\'t decay. Besides of the few model Belegost Dwarves and the Estolad Guards, there are no final-version, or close to final version NPCs of my craft yet in.'),(559,'dcf229b177','','Version 051005_1:\r\n\r\nAfter a more busy period of real-life, returned to building the mod.\r\n\r\nCharacter creation this close *shows with fingers* to being completed.'),(560,'42bf3e65a0','','Another whoops - House of Bëor is, of course, the First House of Edain.'),(561,'018a402fe3','Greater Sanctuary.','Ok, I realise this is probably a Bioware issue, but on the off chance..\r\n\r\nThe spell doesn\'t appear to be working properly. I have been attacked and slain multiple times while under said spell effect - I thought that wasn\'t possible. Stangely, it appears that only the orcs of the Broken Maw can \'see through\' my shields. All other creatures tested (Black goblins, all types of orc) didn\'t so much as blink as I sauntered past.\r\n\r\n\r\nOtherwise, went quite well. Creatures are looking about the right difficultly level, though I was playing solo. For party play they may need a bit of re-inforcement.\r\n\r\nM'),(562,'c8c0520bc7','','Ebb the Younger.\r\n\r\nM'),(563,'b478b478a7','','Yep, we need an Ebb. Maybe we could re-name him... Burt?\r\n\r\nAlso the script where you can only rest every 7 hours or so. Easy to script, but hey, why script it when ya can take it!'),(564,'1f1398b0ee','','Well how then would this game be any different that any other dozen mmo\'s? All of them have insta travel, or flight/horse based speeded travel from point X to point Y with no little to no chance of loss or risk. None possess permadeath, no population limits.. this sounds too much likes its just \'yet another mmo\' with a Middle Earth name, very much like LOTRO is already, which is nothing more than a hack and slash outdoor dungeon where people will ultimately grind it out to level. Grind as in go find a boar kill it, get some loot, and repeat all of this general formula incessantly... I\'m sure Middle Earth is the best setting for that type of play style to take place... \r\n\r\nMaybe I\'m just not cut out for design in a Middle Earth setting. Every time I push for realism or upholding what I think is the setting and context of the books, I am in the minority to those who perfer \'less realisim\' more playability which IMO is very subjective. Look if you want instant travel and all the other trappings of the other dozen mmo\'s play them, thats what they are there for. Middle Earth is different, its sacred in a sense and making it \'gamey\' so its like the rest is not a legit reason to choose that course of action in design. \r\n\r\nWhy must we get into the apples and oranges comparisons when any thing is discussed? Do we have to be like WoW or UO or DAOC and do what they did? Have they somehow figured out the only viable way to do a MMO? Are they the best designers ? I certainly don\'t think so but thats just my 2 cents. Does a MMO mean you must have instant travel or no race limits or other constructs which charaterize that type of game? \r\n\r\nJohn (awaiting reprisals 8) )'),(565,'5930f7bcdb','','Several of us were in the mod the other day, and the rest period came up. I think we agreed that 8 hours is too long for casters and that the rest interval might be 4-5 hours. \r\n\r\nWith respect to previous discussions of multiclassing: The total level cap also works to reduce multiclassing greatly, again especially for casters, since they need most of their character levels to get better spells and more \'slots.\'\r\n\r\nMany, if not all, buff visuals should be removed (I know some disagree with me on this). Not only is it intrusive, but I found that with premonition and some other buff visuals on the PC I was having a conversation with, I couldn\'t really see him.'),(566,'cd25cddb90','','I didn\'t say that there would be no chance of loss or risk. I said that walking everywhere quickly becomes tedious. It is, after all, a game. You shouldn\'t penalise those who don\'t have time to walk halfway across the world to complete a quest/ explore. Why not just make faster travel far more risky than walking? Then only those that need to/ want to take the risk will do it.\r\n\r\nI am fully in support of permadeath, for the record. Populations limits are a different thing. My suggestion as to capping the number of elves would be to make them significantly harder to play, rather than arbitarily saying people can\'t play them.\r\n\r\nM'),(567,'60185fdac7','','8 hours is just fine to rest, methinks.\r\n\r\nAlso, Ebb is not enough. I think we would need an other script that allows players to delete their characters as well.'),(568,'e6a23f0abb','','Uhh, guys. I start to get the feeling that more and more of you are over-representing some inner desires.\r\n\r\nInacceptable as it may seem, I am ok with the 1 starting point for goodies. With the Dwarves in, it is not much of a question that the eastern hills it will be. Somewhere near Thargelion. :) (None of the people of Finarfin nor of Fingolfin would be delighted to live among and in the sway of the sons of Feanor though, but maybe it\'s just me....)\r\n\r\nI hope this wont remain so in the NwN 2 mod.\r\n\r\nSome areas of terror are needed too. Gorgoroth, Dor Daedeloth, the tunnel of Angband and Thangorodrim, maybe. And not only for hunting, mind you. We have too many goodie places, yesno?'),(569,'c51b568622','','Yes, though at first, we\'d need to get a standing system to test - then, we can later add the content for the Bad Boys(tm).'),(570,'134f10435d','','Not scriptable. I think. Possibly with Leto, but basically, that does require server administration (i.e. me) to intervene, and manually delete the file.'),(571,'9ef4a51428','','I discussed rest periods with Blake, and we would like 3-4 hour periods if possible. There is no advantage (really) to having longer ones.\r\n\r\nM'),(572,'d1814ccdee','','One starting area strikes me as the best option. Mind you, choosing the Feanorian east as a starting area might pose a problem for Sindarin characters. \r\n\r\nSomewhere around Estolad, perhaps a well-supported encampment (might be given a Bree like-feeling) might be an option... from thereon, players could either head east or west... an on-character creation script might also be thrown in.. (explaining, for instance, why you, a Fingolfinite, are not beginning the game in Hithlum).'),(573,'10582a6c3f','','How about when we are going to make announcment ( in RoME ) that we are planning this for NWN 2 ?\r\n\r\nShould we tip RoME players that we are under development ?\r\n\r\nIf so i can post something about it, it just came into my mind after seeing Pal\'s post in Rome forum.\r\n\r\nI personally like to make them know that we are doing this but not yet tell about this forum.\r\n\r\nThoughts ?'),(574,'321a9e276b','','As well. I\'d rather announce anything in public only after we get a working beta. Before that, we can mention what we are doing if the matter happens to come up, but really, alpha is not much to talk about.\r\n\r\nHm, should continue scripting.'),(575,'12370827ba','','Hm, makes sense. Though, perhaps make it not that well-supported. One thing I hate in RoME Bree is that it is so well-supported that there\'s little reason to move out. But, yes, what ever the starting place, at least the basics should be provided.'),(576,'53fd1b25f4','','What I would deem best as a goodie starting point is Nargothrond. People should start up farther from Morgoth and his servants. If I recall Finrod Felagund was friendly to all races (Dwarves aided him in the building of the fortress, etc.), and houses of the Elves. \r\n\r\nIn any case, a smaller starting point is in no way viable, since more than 50% of the server\'s community will throng there without any setting-based reason. It shouldn\'t be a minor village.'),(577,'518dcf5979','','On this question we do need a decision.\r\n\r\nThe candidates would be Nargothrond, and East Beleriand. Both do have a good amount of people allowed in. (East Beleriand: Thargelion or Estolad)\r\n\r\nThargelion, as a realm, would be in ruins (recently ruined), so that would open both challenges (people are leaving) and opportunities (lot of small quests in the ruins of civilization). Himring would be otherwise fine, but it is a bit too close to Anfauglith, which is supposed to be a Tough Place(tm).'),(578,'761eae5d00','','From RoME forums:\r\n[quote:761eae5d00]Or how about we try the very begining of Tolkien\'s world, in Beleriand and the lands of the North. [/quote:761eae5d00]\r\n\r\nSeems like someone has already (should I be nasty and say \"clumsily,\" okay no I won\'t) \'made the matter come up\'....\r\n\r\nI agree with Qrizz that I\'d rather not have 50 people knowing about these forums. 50 people all going about, throwing in their 50 cents, at this stage certainly... (*takes down a bottle of extra-strength tylenols*)\r\n\r\n-------------------------------------------\r\nThe advantages to announcing it \"publicly\" (with strong emphasis on the quotation marks) are:\r\n\r\n(1) It does away with the notion that we are developing this \'behind-the-scenes\' from Rome, which is not really the case.\r\n\r\n(2) It lets a wider community of players know about us. Who knows, some of them might even be willing to help out as builders/scripters.\r\n\r\n(3) It allows us to get some very early feedback on the general flavour of our \"server,\" and see whether there is any interest in playing on a Beleriand server.\r\n------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nBut, hrm, for some reason, I\'m with Mith on this one, and I\'d still wait this out for a bit... I am curious just to read what people are going to say...'),(579,'a36aa87d65','','I\'d say Nargothrond (reluctantly), as there is more scope to include all of the races.\r\n\r\nM'),(580,'03a5085282','','I have just discovered that I am a born area designer. At least I feel like that. I never ever had so much fun in all of my gaming years, so, anything you wish to have built, (provided I have the time) just let me know and I\'ll build it. Pity that this is such a late discovery...\r\n\r\nOh, btw, I am making Barad Eithel at the moment (and a small throne room, along with a neighbouring mountain pass in Ered Wethrim), which is almost finished. Yet. How could I put life into it? Elite Guards of the High King are needed. Many. \r\n\r\n(Also, I designed the area so that major siege-scenes and dramatic speeches can take place. Yet I fear that without a binding point, all this will be only but a place for stoping-by to shop-in healing kits and Healing potions. Against all these odds, I will try to convince you to spend more time in Eithel Sirion)\r\n\r\nAnd we may need a character sitting-script.'),(581,'ffffba7498','','Sooner or later we should go open.\r\n\r\nSooner than someone else comes up the idea of setting up a First Age server, also sooner before the server goes down or people leave Rome.\r\n\r\nBut later than the drawing-board period.'),(582,'8aa2821992','NPCs & Monsters','And Noldorin Elven warrior should be much stronger than the Orcs, so:\r\n\r\n\r\nAn idea: let us grant all Elven warrior NPC/defenders some 30/+5 or 40/+5 dmg resistancy, so only /x3 weapons are really useful against them. Middle-high AC for them, too.\r\n\r\nWhile Orcs should be easier to damage, but have to appear in far greater numbers.'),(583,'e24363bc03','','The character sitting-script is, hm, can\'t remember the name from the top of my head, but it\'s one of those jr_ named scripts in the mod. jr_sit_on_object or something. (However - wait until I upload the new version of the mod, I have it now on the works, ok?).\r\n\r\nCreatures can be created on tools->Creature Wizard. Red\'s on the process on making them items, currently there\'s a few horribly-coloured ones made by me as a temporarily solution (+ some of my items made for RoME).'),(584,'fd9d15ed4a','','Careful with those... while I do agree that we will never achieve balance, still we\'d need to be careful. As this is in PC design... well, elven PCs do have one great advantage: They have natural resistance to magic. (Needs balancing, currently it is pretty über.) That is, once the extended character creation is done. It\'ll be done really soon now. Promise.\r\n\r\n(I\'ve been busy, but I should be able to continue working on that today - as said, I am close to getting it ready, though admittedly, late on my schedule by a week.)'),(585,'237000dde8','','Ok, I know how to create creatures, was not sure wether I am allowed to.\r\n\r\nAlso, I wold need a quick tutorial conserning doors and transitions. \r\n\r\nI have also one special question: how to create multiple transitions between two areas.\r\n\r\nThanks for the support.'),(586,'7362c8b7e8','','No, I meant NPCs only. Like guards of Angband and Doriath, etc. the challeneges PCs may meet in their adventures.\r\n\r\nWell?\r\n\r\nAlso:\r\n\r\nOrc << Elf < many Orcs < Trolls <<< Dragon <(?) Balrog\r\n\r\n?'),(587,'253dfe6ae6','','Well, don\'t ask me why, but I think the current level-based system addresses the issue of balancing elves.\r\n\r\nA properly built high-level adventurer can take down hordes of orcs, fewer trolls, even fewer dragons, and certainly no Balrogs.\r\n\r\nElves, and particularly Noldor, have a slight advantage in this sense, since they begin at a higher level than other PC classes (or at least in our world they will). So your concern, at least from my perspective, has been addressed. Though feel free to correct me if I didn\'t \'get it.\'\r\n\r\nThat is not to say that all Noldor were competent warriors. Some may have chosen to remain indoors all the time and tell jokes, strum their lutes, and concern themselves with everything and anything but warfare...\r\n\r\nI would like to think, as well, that orcs were not all that incompetent. Obviously you had your slave-labourers, but a difficult environment based on a \'survival of the fittest\' way of thinking must have produced some spectacular specimens, though fewer of those would be around.'),(588,'d716e81c6d','','Answering in a separate thread.'),(589,'b2fe3e4da5','Area design questions (technical)','[quote:b2fe3e4da5]Ok, I know how to create creatures, was not sure wether I am allowed to.\r\n\r\nAlso, I wold need a quick tutorial conserning doors and transitions.\r\n\r\nI have also one special question: how to create multiple transitions between two areas.\r\n\r\nThanks for the support.[/quote:b2fe3e4da5]\r\n\r\n- Red provides the items, save for epic NPCs. This is done in the name of keeping the items uniform around the mod, i.e. on the roughly same level. If there are no items yet for you, use placeholders.\r\n\r\nHow to make a transition:\r\nPlace a door or a transition trigger.\r\nOn the target, place a door or a waypoint.\r\nIMPORTANT: Check that door and waypoint do both have UNIQUE tags. (I.e. not door001, but rather BELEGOST_MAIN_DOOR. A good habit is to begin this with area name/abbreviation of.)\r\nLocate the \"Setup Transition\" button on the Area Transition tab.\r\nChoose target area, choose target door or waypoint.\r\nChoose wether you want this to be one-way or two-way.\r\n\r\nDo as many times you need.\r\n\r\nTransition on script: On your script, include the \"jr_pc_methods\" script. (I.e. in the beginning of the file, type \"#include \"jr_pc_methods\".\") The function call is \"teleport(object CreatureToTeleport, string TargetTag)\". If I remember it right. Example: teleport(GetPCSpeaker(), BELEGOST_MAIN_DOOR);.\r\n\r\nON NPCs:\r\n\r\nPreferably, import NPCs yourself on the mod. The module is available for download. (Um, currently not the most recent. I\'ll upload it, once I get schoolwork done.) If you don\'t know how to access the file server, contact me.\r\n\r\n(I can import NPCs, as well - just remember to tell me what is their faction. On export, their factions are reset.)'),(590,'b805366733','','There were legends of orc heroes, living long times and doing heroic (or rather, villainous) feats. These... are likely to be the PCs, but also some NPCs.\r\n\r\nIf the current system of racial spell resistance stays, high-level elves will be able to resist magic pretty well. Should bring a nice edge, though other ways, orcs will have numerous advantages. (For PCs, faster leveling and that +2 STR.) Of course, the sides are anything but balanced, but it will need to be issued to later.\r\n\r\n(Though, should be careful with the current subrace system. It is not going to stay over into NWN 2. In fact, we know nothing more of NWN2 subraces that the Drow (uh) are included.)'),(591,'83c647c136','','A good idea is also to create a simple dummy module where can you test and experiment at your own leisure... Mind you, you may already be doing this... I\'ve been doing this for a while now and it works pretty well (there\'s never any fear of going wrong, since it\'s a dummy mod).\r\n\r\n---------------------------------\r\nIf you\'re looking for scripts which aren\'t automatically incorporated into the toolset, I recommend downloading \"Lilac Soul\'s NWN Script Generator.\" I have no knowledge of computer coding or languages, but this small program makes scripting A LOT easier. (should be downloadable on the NWN website... I think Mith had the link somewhere.) Mind you, scripting is still a bit of a hassle but... hey!\r\n\r\n------------------------------------\r\nOn the subject of areas transitions:\r\n\r\nAll transitions can (and should) be made using the \"standard\" key, and not the custom one. Why am I mentioning this? Cause I originally started making all my transition as custom, only to find out doing so: (1) added scripts (and weight) to the mod for no reason; (2) tended to create an organizational nightmare.... Anyhow, may seem obvious in hindsight, but wasn\'t the case for me at first.'),(592,'8c85837a98','','Lilac Soul\'s Script Generator:\r\n[url]http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=625[/url]'),(593,'5ee8e6a25e','Test case: Server availability','I have changed router hardware. On my end, everything seems to work, but I\'d ask you to test:\r\n\r\nGameSpy:\r\n- Does the game show?\r\n- Is it accessable?\r\n- Does the ping show?\r\n\r\nDirect connect:\r\n- Can you reach the game by direct connecting to elder-days.dyndns.org port 5121?\r\n- Can you reach the SFTP server at mithos.homelinux.net port 1046? (Note: If you do not have a password there, do not try. Crackers are hammering it enough, thank you.)\r\n\r\nEDIT: SFTP port changed, due to keeping it on 22 would cut me from using SSH for outbound connections. (I.e. connecting to Univ servers.) Memory rule: 22 is the default one. 1046 is 1024 + 22.'),(594,'b554db3f84','','One other question: what is the name of tjhe script that displays a text in the combat window? (I wanna add an upon-entry-text that describes the area)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nOn Barad Eithel: \r\n\r\nThere will be only one entrance to the tower, via a city gate. My idea is that only elves have keys to the gate (which is otherwise destructable, should need around 10.000 dmg points to bring it down, along with dmg resists).\r\n\r\nSo, the inital setup: we toss a few keys around to a few elves. these keys are non-tranferrable, so no exploit here. \r\n\r\nOthers can get a key from a \"Keymaster\", which I wanted to place in the court of Fingolfin. The Keymaster will only give keys to elves (with a racial check in the conversation). \r\n\r\nSo, in order to get a key, you need to convince a fellow Elf to bring you inside and then you must talk to the Keymaster. Voilá!\r\n\r\nAlso, anyone could enter if an Elf brings her in, or she sneaks through the gate while it is open (auto-close will be working too).\r\n\r\nI would have added the racial check to the gate, but I am yet not convinced it could work in theory.\r\n\r\nCould this work? do you have any other ideas how to solve that only elves could open the front gate?\r\n\r\n\r\nOn destroying the gates:\r\nThe walls are built in a way that the defenders can pepper the attackers of the gate easily. Extra ammunition to bows will be placed in chests along the outer-ring of defences. \r\n\r\nI thought of a secret entrance too, or a break in the walls where with high enough dexterity (cca 27-30) can climb inside. The cirteria\'s reason is not to allow high-damage or even dev critters to get inside. Orcish PCs wont have that much, too.\r\n\r\nOf course the NPC guards will have high spot and listen, but no True Sight. Maybe See Invis, maybe...\r\n\r\n\r\nWell?'),(595,'ff139e82db','','an other question:\r\n\r\nI changed the visionairy to Foggy External, and customized it. Then, all lights and torches were lit automaticly. How can I extuigish these?\r\n\r\nMany thanks.'),(596,'d45deab54e','','[quote:d45deab54e]One other question: what is the name of tjhe script that displays a text in the combat window? (I wanna add an upon-entry-text that describes the area)[/quote:d45deab54e]\r\n\r\nYou have to create a script for this (go into script editor). Mith may have a generic one for this, not sure.\r\n\r\nTo do this, place a generic trigger at the same place where the pcs will appear upon entering. Then go to \'properties,\' select the \'on enter\' function, and select the script you will have created from the menu.\r\n\r\nYour script should look like this (you can copy paste into script editor):\r\n\r\n[quote:d45deab54e]\r\n//Put this OnEnter\r\nvoid main()\r\n{\r\n\r\nobject oPC = GetEnteringObject();\r\n\r\nif (!GetIsPC(oPC)) return;\r\n\r\nSendMessageToPC(oPC, \"Descriptive message\");\r\n\r\n}[/quote:d45deab54e]\r\n\r\nWhere it says \"Descriptive message,\" you can substitute that phrase (keeping the quotation marks) with whatever message you would like to see.'),(597,'f409823b01','','[quote:f409823b01]There will be only one entrance to the tower, via a city gate. My idea is that only elves have keys to the gate (which is otherwise destructable, should need around 10.000 dmg points to bring it down, along with dmg resists). So, the inital setup: we toss a few keys around to a few elves. these keys are non-tranferrable, so no exploit here. Others can get a key from a \"Keymaster\", which I wanted to place in the court of Fingolfin. The Keymaster will only give keys to elves (with a racial check in the conversation). [/quote:f409823b01]\r\n\r\nWhile this sounds great, it involves a substantial bit of work. I would simply go for a racial check.'),(598,'aae1ba0547','','For an example script how to make doors work, see the gates of Estolad.\r\n\r\nNot exactly, but almost.\r\n- Estolad Gates are permanently locked. (Overrideable by script open command or DM)\r\n- Gates are bashable.\r\n- Upon failure to open gate, a conversation will appear, where a guard (standing near the gate, behind the wall) will comment if the character (based on racial check) will be allowed to enter, or not.\r\n- On failed check, the character is told to get lost.\r\n- On successful check, the character is teleported in. (So, just replace this with the command to open the gate & delayed command to close it later.)\r\n\r\nAlso, you might even want not to check for race, but subrace. The subrace identifier for House of Fingolfin is \"House-of-Fingolfin\" (accessable via GetSubrace(oPC) command, compared to string).\r\n\r\nI.e. in conversation it\'d be the following:\r\n\r\nobject oPC = GetPCSpeaker();\r\nif(GetSubrace(oPC) == \"House-of-Fingolfin\")\r\n{\r\ndo_some_stuff_here();\r\n}\r\nelse\r\n{\r\ndo_some_other_stuff_here();\r\n}\r\n\r\n(Where the \"else\" block is optional - also, if in conversation, might just put that into StartingConditional function (\"This text appears when...\"). In that case, the \"if\" block has \"return TRUE;\" and the else block has \"return FALSE;\" in it.)'),(599,'d4d989e2c5','','Yup, Mith is right. We need to settle this question because of its subsequent impact on area design.\r\n\r\nI think Nargothrond should be ruled out, if we keep in mind that the Sack of Nargothrond is set to occur roughly 50 years after the Dagor Bragollach (at which point Nargothrond could be converted into a high-level adventure area).\r\n\r\nIn light of this, East Beleriand strikes me as the best option. There are several nearby areas (and various wilderness areas, to the south, for instance, that we could add in), which could be used for adventure-related purposes. \r\n\r\nI still think the idea of a well-supported encampment might do the job. \r\nWe could place it in southeast Beleriand, and use that part of the mod for supporting low-level PCs. The advantage of doing this is that we can use other parts of the mod for creating stuff for mid and higher level PCs.\r\nHimring and Mithrim I personally see as starting places for high-level PCs.\r\n\r\nThargelion, with its crumbling ruins, strikes me as a great mid-level area... There might still be pockets of orcs there. The Ered Luin would foreseeably have trolls and such.\r\n\r\nPlease, more feedback.'),(600,'a89b6f9bae','','Let us just return to the 2 starting point for goodies.\r\n\r\nBeleriand for 1-12 levels and ... Nargothrond or Hithlum/Mithrim or a North-eastern castle/tower, somewhere in the Himring region.\r\n\r\nAlso, I don\'t think that we will have too many opportunities to advance the server-clock, since NwN 2 will come soon, and bluntly, it is simply hell of a work to keep the server up-to-date as the days of the First Age are passing by...\r\n\r\nI would not support advancing the clock.'),(601,'070dc88632','','At least in the beta, clock will not advance. No reason to. After \"release\" of the \"final\" module, i.e. the testbed for NWN2, we may advance the clock, but there is no reason to do it quick.\r\n\r\nAnd as a note, Mithrim and Maedros\'s Mark will fall before Nargothrond.'),(602,'4b96bee490','','Just looked up Elder Days on NWN, the server does not show up on the list.'),(603,'142c1121a5','','All Elves should be let in, shouldn\'t they?\r\n\r\nThanks for the help, guys.'),(604,'6c5d33d0e6','','Yes. I did try to fix that for a few hours, and the situation was that on the new router, one could Direct Connect, but not depending on how many ports I did open, it didn\'t show it in GameSpy.\r\n\r\nReverted back to old router, less power & more limited configurability. I\'ll return the new one into store, it had some other features I didn\'t like (like cutting conn from all connected machines when changing settings).\r\n\r\nHowever, what I learned that this 20 EUR little box does beat the fancy feature-packed router in reliability.\r\n\r\nOne limitation remains: For some reason, at least on my system, I cannot see the ping. Do you see it? (Otherwise, should be fine. Good thing the new router has a \"we give your money back if you\'re not happy\" deal.)'),(605,'505e7ea88b','','Yep, in that case it\'s not that important. I have myself used racial checks in the mentioned Estolad doors.'),(606,'bd3d1267c9','','After additional tweaking (and a better router), I do hereby declare the system fully functional. Or at least that\'s what it looks like in here?'),(607,'371f6fb661','','[quote:371f6fb661]GameSpy: \r\n- Does the game show? \r\n- Is it accessable? \r\n- Does the ping show?[/quote:371f6fb661]\r\n\r\n(1) Yes\r\n(2) Yes\r\n(3) Yes (reads around 165)'),(608,'ad545f9dec','','Sadly, I have to turn my hands away from this project for a longer time, so I dont know what might come, but it\'d be best for me to quit or suspend working on the Elder Days. \r\n\r\nI feel sorry for it, I really had my faith in this, but life calls me away.\r\n\r\nI intend to return, the will is there, but everything hangs on the conditions. \r\n\r\n...\r\n\r\nWell...\r\n\r\n\r\nSweet water and light laughter till next we meet!\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nGalengil'),(609,'2758a1d345','','Might you still send us what you have achieved this far?\r\n\r\nIt does not matter if it is only in concept level - because that is, mainly, what we have this far.'),(610,'338f01c53c','','Take care.\r\n\r\nLet us know if conditions change!'),(611,'47a6068140','','[quote:47a6068140]And as a note, Mithrim and Maedros\'s Mark will fall before Nargothrond.[/quote:47a6068140]\r\n\r\nI\'d forgotten about those... hrm... would be best, then, not to use either of those areas as starting areas since, once overrun, they will make for nice training grounds for the orcs... Doriath will fall, as well, later, mind you, but fall nonetheless it shall.\r\n\r\nThis is why I support using a slightly out-of-the-way starting area, in the south, preferably. Creating a well-supported area for low-levels requires time, thought and energy, and I\'d rather we not have to re-do that area every time one of the strongholds of Noldor falls.\r\n\r\n-------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nOn a related note, I think it would be nice if we could also create an area that would be a focus for a lot of the quests or whatnot.... What do I mean by this? \r\n\r\nWell, if we create a sufficiently large world, players will get scattered, and ultimately the opportunities for player interaction will get diminished. So it would be nice to pin one specific as a sort of fulcrum for player interaction-- a place where characters, for several reasons, are forced to return to. I suppose Brethil could be a candidate. One way of doing this is to pump the surrounding lands with lots of natural resources...\r\nFeedback, please.\r\n--------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nOne reason why I am currently a little hesitant to do more building is that I am waiting for more info from NWN 2. \r\n\r\nI was thinking of horses, for instance. Were the horse thingie turn out to be as cool as expected, I think that area design would be influenced quite significantly. Building areas with wide-sweeping plains would be the subject of greater emphasis, as well twisting mountainous areas where the horsemen would be at a significant disadvantage... But it all depends on how these specifics work out in-game.'),(612,'c1116f23f1','','I hate this very much.... life is damn too short. \r\n\r\nAnyhow, Mith, I\'ve sent you the Hithlum area to your e-mail given here. Hehh, now I can see it was only an MSN address. Well. please pm me the correct e-mail address.\r\n\r\nBe very very well!\r\n\r\nGal'),(613,'0ba3aa46f4','','Version 051019_1:\r\n\r\nWas able to work with the mod a bit, though the exam tomorr- today is now the first goal for me (as well a few other things I need to do today).\r\n\r\nBarad Sirion concept area imported to the mod. Also, the character creation is really close to be done now. Mean, really really close. (It does miss a few scripts, and then, that should be it.)'),(614,'362d827a4d','','Version 051022_1:\r\n\r\nSupposed that the scripts work, the subrace system is ready - just need to turn the scripts on. Though, it will even then miss the starting equipment.\r\n\r\nAlso, played around with an orcish starting area - we\'ll need at least a dummy orc starting area.\r\n\r\nHowever, I\'ve now been up (for various reasons - no, not because of this update) 36 hours in a row - I think it is time to concentrate on something else than NWScript.\r\n\r\nAlso, caster caps removed due to limiting total levels to 20.'),(615,'56b3588150','','Suggestion: In order to make item design easier, specifically items that are vs. Orcs... since the PCs will be Half-Orcs internally, let us make it so that all vs. Orcs items will be vs. Half-Orcs. Of course, this means that all of our Orcs monsters will have their race changed to Half-Orc.\r\n\r\nComments?\r\n\r\nAnd once I am in it... I am slightly troubled by the über-orcs, no offense. Of course, we can have a few tougher orc NPCs, but a whole clan?\r\n\r\nPerhaps, from the easiest to hardest, we could have the minions of Angband go:\r\n\r\n- Easy goblins, wolves, bats (CR 1 - 3)\r\n- Moderate goblins, big wolves, bats (CR 4 - 6)\r\n- Tough goblins, easy orcs, wargs, tougher bats (CR 7 - 9)\r\n- Moderate orcs, stronger wargs, easy werewolves (CR 10 - 12)\r\n- Tough orcs, easy trolls, moderate werewolves (CR 13 - 15)\r\n- Moderate trolls, tough werewolves, easy vampires (CR 16 - 18)\r\n- Tough trolls, moderate vampires, easier cold drakes (CR 19 - 21)\r\n- Tough vampires, tougher cold drakes, orc champions, wraiths (CR 22 - 24)\r\n- Easier wyrms and minor Balrogs, tougher wraiths, werewolf and vampire champions (should not be seen on random encounters, perhaps save if someone manages to get closer to Angband) (CR 25 - 27)\r\n- Tougher wyrms and Balrogs (should not be seen on random encounters) (CR 28 - 30)'),(616,'86b8fcf4e4','','I fondly recall walking across Antonica for the first time in Everquest Live waaaay back when. it took me a good 30 minutes to transverse some of the zones as I was with someone who did not have sow, and there were no Wizzies high enough to port if that was even invented yet.\r\n\r\nIt was scary, it was fun, ad gosh darnit, when we died it was a major pain in the ass.\r\n\r\nAnd I had a fabulous time - the first few times I did it. A fter that, it did grow to be quite the pain.\r\n\r\nI played that game for 5 years and there are parts of Antonica I never went to because of the pain of traveling there.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nIn short, having the travel be NOT 1:1 (that would be too much for any average player) is good.\r\n\r\nHaving it take awhile is good though, at least the first time. After they travel one time by foot, perhaps then they can take the faster option. Having a risk to the faster method would be fun ;)'),(617,'6fc2a77e53','','Sorry for my recent absence, school has become murder. \r\n\r\n*has moment of insight* What if we made it very close to 1-1...ie. say it takes a whole day or two to walk across the world (yea I know thats still not even close to 1-1 but humor me)...say we have travel when you are logged off? Kinda like how some games have done training while logged out. Suppose you can let your character travel while you are logged off? It then requires some planning and time to travel... but you dont have to leave 2 months early to meet someone who started on the other side of the world. Celebmirtan, I\'m very interested to hear your opinion on this.\r\n\r\nEdit: Another note on something Lomion said...walking becomes tedius...I would say that whether we go with something quicker or something closer to real...we should be doing our best to make walking adventurous and fun...if we can create an interesting enivroment, one that is alive, I think that I could handle having to walk for longer. I can recall finding something cool out in the wilderness when playing SWG...Just some thoughts :)'),(618,'b387820af7','','Looking at the list.. do we have too many PC factions? I mean, three Noldor, three other assorted elves, three lots of Edain..\r\n\r\nSuggested fix: Two factions of Noldor - Feanorian + other\r\n \r\nTwo factions(? possibly one?) other elves - Doriath & other sindar + Laiquendi & non-sindar\r\n\r\nOne dwarvish playable\r\n\r\nOne faction: Edain\r\n\r\nTwo factions of humans - Friendly + soon-to-be- unfriendly\r\n\r\nM'),(619,'bb8cc65bc1','','The number of factions does not do any harm.\r\n\r\nActually, since every faction is practically a party of NPCs, more factions but smaller will help to combat lag.\r\n\r\nSay, we have all elves in \"Elves\" faction. You kill one, and now it signals all other elves that you\'ve killed one. Compare this to \"signals only to his own kindred\" we are having now.\r\n\r\nI know, it does increase the amount of overhead slightly (and the items you have to make), but besides of that, there is no other bad things in it.\r\n\r\nSpecially it will help if we model the First House of Edain to be outlaws in Dorthonion & Ladros etc.: Then, the orc PCs raiding there will effect only to ed1 faction, not into a whole Edain faction.\r\n\r\n(So, yes - we\'d actually need to split the Angband faction into a few separate factions. Would also allow orcs to more easily fight against other orcs.)'),(620,'f3ca4b0c7b','','Version 051029_1:\r\n- Added Mike\'s first concepts for Fëanorian items.\r\n(Note: I PM\'d you my comments.)'),(621,'a915522232','','Hey, guys! Let me ask your opinions about this girl here:\r\n[img:a915522232]http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/5325/1004473k9di.jpg[/img:a915522232]\r\nThat\'s Szilvia. Our goddess.\r\n\r\nJuho, we have a Finnish girl among us, too. She was born in Laapparenta herself. Nice girl, wants to learn Hungarian verily. :lol: \r\n\r\nCome among us to find out more about her. We have an english forum as well. \r\nhttp://www.ideaprodukcio.hu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85&start=3345'),(622,'a6565c45fe','','Well, I must congratulate you, Zoltán. Otherwise, I prefer to silence myself in this matter.\r\n\r\nAnd this conspiracy theory of yours is new. I was previously aware only of the Finnish Conspiracy to take over the World, spawning from TORC/Tolkien Online. (Admittedly, I have not read those boards in a long time, so it might have mutated a bit. For more information, Google for \"Finnish conspiracy to take over the World\".)'),(623,'ae59b0929e','','Matt,\r\n I\'ve been away at a network training but I just read that and it sparked another idea. I will post it shortly and see what you think, I just wanted to let you know I\'m still here hanging about.\r\n\r\nJohn'),(624,'36fa299c23','','What about some risk factor element or formula that would allow for faster travel, which has the potential to be interrupted by \'encounters\' along the way. This could abort the travel means and leave the PC somewhere along the way having to deal with X problem. Once that is cleared up, they may be able to resume the journey without walking. Sort of like taking the Enterprise out of warp speed to deal with a local issue and resuming back on course if the warp engines are still intact. \r\n\r\nRisk could be determined by group size, hostile areas which the PC travels through, and other things. There is always the option to \"walk\" anywhere, but the express travel will layout potential encounters and perhaps detract the PC off on a instance or a minor side quest. \r\n\r\nThoughts?\r\n\r\nCeleb'),(625,'0e44b12be1','','You mean something similar to the Baldur\'s gate system? Except, presumably, with more modes of tranport and less \'click at the edge of the map\'..\r\n\r\nM'),(626,'48f35636d3','','Very interesting, I seem to remember that being used in old games, mabye one of the zelda\'s? What kind of time frame would we be looking for in that system for travel across the world? And btw, making \'fast\' travel interactive sounds cool.'),(627,'8667755a5b','','Also, might want to see the world map travel on some roguelikes. (TOME, an Angband variant, and ADOM coming into mind.) Of course, in a refined form.\r\n\r\nTheoretically, you have a chance to enter the wilderness at any point (and in this case, travel in the wilderness by walking?), but you could travel in the world map. If you encounter something, you can try to evade, or then you have to fight.\r\n\r\nOther example, though perhaps not as usable, see Mount and Blade. ([url]www.taleworlds.com[/url])'),(628,'734987c738','','Accelerated travel, should only be allowed if one has a guide (Ranger for example), has been to that location before. What I don\'t want to see is once you leg it across the planet, you can instant travel anywhere. There should be choke points that do not allow fast travel through. I\'m thinking of the Gap of Rohan, Moria and the passes of the Misty Mountains. There are probably tons more, but I\'m thinking in terms of Arnor as the beginning region. \r\n\r\nSpeaking of guides, it would also be limiting to them if they have not been around the world some. Joe Ranger a new guide who has never been to say Mirkwood or Laketown could not take anyone there via speeded up travel, he could walk. Aragorn on the other hand could take anyone anywhere probably, but then again he would be restricted by choke points. \r\n\r\nJohn'),(629,'89a88d75dd','',':lol: I will, I will my friend!\r\n\r\nYet, how are doing, around here? Any news? Tell me everything! :lol: :lol:\r\n\r\n(Also I forgot my password on the Rome boards, so no clue what\'s going on there...)'),(630,'ef97b8b1c6','','I\'m well.\r\n\r\nThe mod work, on my part, has been on a standstill save some scetches. Opening the mod in toolset... now.\r\n\r\nIn RoME, the server plot has departed canon by the permanent injuries suffered by Frodo that have forced him to stay in Rivendell. The Aglaruial is planning for a \"small diversion\" to steal the attention of the Enemy. Read: Epic Elven campaign.'),(631,'6664b2dd68','','Version 051122_1 (Phew, how real life can interrupt your projects):\r\n- Added/modified some monsters, including goblins, wolves, orcs, werewolves and trolls.'),(632,'b3b23b534a','','You won\'t beleive what I\'m telling you. That Finnish girl/woman (with two children) is flying to Hungary after Xmas, just to visit our very kind community of Nox fans and attend this year\'s biggest Nox concert! This girl is devoted to say the least! :lol: \r\n\r\nBtw... this girl, on this picture, it is Szilvia, the lead singer of Nox, btw. I really hope you haven\'t misunderstood me! :lol: \r\n\r\nHere\'s a pic from one of the concerts to assure you:\r\n\r\n[img:b3b23b534a]http://gportal.hu/portal/noxfanclub/image/gallery/1128844352.jpg[/img:b3b23b534a]'),(633,'48d895a737','','The site you linked doesn\'t seem to allow linked pics.\r\n\r\nMerry Christmas, anyway.\r\nHyvää joulua.\r\nGod jul.\r\nJoueux Noël.\r\nFeliz Navidad.\r\nKellemes Karacsonyi unnepeket.\r\nFroehliche Weihnachten.\r\nBoas Festas.\r\nNoeliniz Ve Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun.\r\n\r\nYou\'re allowed to guess: There are two languages I don\'t know myself, but did search the phrases. Which they are?'),(634,'60ac854086','','The last two. Spanish and the one I don\'t recongnise...\r\n\r\nL'),(635,'de9a44e091','','Actually, Hungarian (Kellemes...) and Turkish (last one). Though admittedly, my knowledge of Portuguese is but a few phrases.'),(636,'e7b27f5cb2','','So, where\'s everybody?\r\n\r\nNew meeting required, and also we\'ve learned a lot new from NWN2.'),(637,'a30435bbfc','','Shame on you, Juho! :lol: \r\n\r\nIrgumburgum! Lesz itt ne-mulass!\r\n\r\nHyvää yötä!'),(638,'97c4f285e7','','Sunday (8th) any good?\r\n\r\nR'),(639,'15a8f25577','','I could do it. What time?'),(640,'8bc9e5ddd7','','4PM GMT. That gives me an hour and a half.\r\n\r\nR'),(641,'d2c2ff7009','','This project has been off my mind for the last few months. But, yes, I think we should meet sometime soon. I could possibly make it for next Sunday, January 15, 10-11 AM. Let me know whether this jives for you. \r\n\r\nThe added hindsight we now have may allow for some fresh perspectives. \r\n\r\nHere are a few comments off the top of my head. \r\n\r\n(1) [u:d2c2ff7009][i:d2c2ff7009]Discussing Commitment[/i:d2c2ff7009][/u:d2c2ff7009]. \r\nBefore even attempting to revive this project, I think we need to discuss individual commitment. It\'s all nice to discuss how the mod should be developed, but fact is that building a proper mod requires hundreds (thousands) of hours of work. Are you willing to make that time-commitment? Are you willing to see this project through, no matter what may come? Are you thinking of migrating over to LOTRO once the game is released? All subsequent matters are ancillary to this one. Launching a mod, in my mind, is much like starting up a small business. Managerial commitment is a fundamental condition for success. It has to, in some ways, become a small-time obsession. \r\n\r\nI do think that, individually, we should all answer these questions. There is nothing wrong with not being willing to commit. There is, however, something wrong with saying one intends to commit and then dropping the project halfway through. Sorry for bringing such a matter in so upfront a manner, but I am thoroughly correct in doing so, I believe.\r\n\r\nRegarding myself, I can commit a few hours (2-3) a week, nothing more. I will also say straight off-- I am not into managing gaggles of community members and their incessant whining. Saving idiots from themselves has never been a priority for me- in games, or in life more generally. \r\n\r\n(2) [u:d2c2ff7009][i:d2c2ff7009]Planning vs. mod-building[/i:d2c2ff7009][/u:d2c2ff7009].\r\nShould we indeed choose to move ahead with this, I think we should dedicate our time to planning exclusively. Simply by looking at our prior work, I think that we may have moved too quickly on some development. I have no intention of doing mod-building prior to the release of NwN 2. Nor can I, since I can\'t seem to find my HotU cd.\r\n\r\nLet me know what you think.'),(642,'5ff07807d3','','Sunday 15th is good for me. I\'m also inclined to agree with Morm\'s points, unless we were aiming to have a \'gap-filler\' for the space between RoME and RoME2.\r\n\r\nMith, Kara, anyone else?\r\n\r\nR'),(643,'8d31363f66','','Sun 15th should be OK for me.\r\n\r\nAnd yes, Gerald raises good points. What we\'d need is a good skeleton, some code-base and optimally a bit of testing on balance. Also what I and Mike discussed a few days ago should be taken into account, Mike had good points on that one. (Not that I\'d agree totally.)'),(644,'168eeb2138','','1. We may have an Aglaruial event on Sunday. I will also be unavailable between 12-3 pm EST, so I hope we\'d plan a meeting around those times.\r\n\r\n2. A summary of what Juho and Mike discussed would be helpful to the rest of us.\r\n\r\n3. I cannot commit my life to this project; however, I hope to be able to make some commitments to it. Unlike Gerald, I am willing to deal with players, unless and/or until I burn out.'),(645,'ff0dca3ef9','','As you may have noticed, the core RoME team are going off from Tolkien world for the next module of NWN2.\r\n\r\nI will continue to support their work as always but my heart isn\'t fully in that, afterall i joined this community just because of middle earth setting.\r\n\r\nI hope when NWN2 comes out this team is still up and we all have time to create world what we truly enjoy playing.\r\n\r\nI will continue to lurk around these boards but i really don\'t think theres not much to do before we get the NWN2 into our hard drives.\r\n\r\nAs i see we have good base plan hope we can get it live someday.\r\n\r\nHave a nice year of 2006 all of you !\r\n\r\nEDIT: i can also post about this project to RoME forums if you want that.\r\nMostly asking builders and scripters to join and inform players that this is under work.\r\nwhat say thee ?'),(646,'3c4d8442a1','','Just budgeted my time over the weekend, and unfortunately I will not be able to make it on Sunday. Owing to various other circumstances, I won\'t be able to commit to anything for the next 2-3 weekends. Things, however, should clear up substantially after that.'),(647,'d3063349f5','','Cheers, Qrizz.\r\n\r\n[quote:d3063349f5]EDIT: i can also post about this project to RoME forums if you want that. Mostly asking builders and scripters to join and inform players that this is under work. what say thee ?[/quote:d3063349f5]\r\n\r\nGood idea methinks.'),(648,'5c5e15bc01','','I have myself been sorting out the start of this half of the semester. Also some planning on the elven campaign in RoME, and the outline of the swimming season.\r\n\r\nQrizz is right with that we can actually do little of long-perioid use until NWN2 ships. (And preferably, start planning after playing thru the single-player campaign to know what the game can do.)\r\n\r\nFor NWN(1): A little set of areas would be nice for testing, and if we wish to expand the areas, more areas could be built as demand requires, i.e. running it as a custom-built campaign. Example: The plot says that the players escort a dwarven prince from Himring to Barad Eithel, we build the areas and NPCs necessary for that instance, and leave them on the game.\r\n\r\nThis approach would be closer to PnP campaigns, and a step out of PW style, but would ease the beginning, and also minimise \'useless\' work.'),(649,'bbebfe270f','','Co-operation with MERPUK?\r\n\r\nThese fellows seem to have pretty solid dedication to continue building a Middle-earth world for NWN2. Should we co-operate with them? Join them?\r\n\r\nI\'ll try to find out what kind of a module they are going to do - though, it sounds pretty much like that Untold Tales of Tolkien III will be Third Age.\r\n\r\nDiscuss.\r\n\r\n(If there\'s someone not familiar: [url]http://merpuk.wireplay.co.uk[/url] )'),(650,'882a90336f','','We can try, I suppose. I\'d like to stipulate a condition that they be a little more... relaxed.. if we\'re going to work with them, though.\r\n\r\nR'),(651,'3155d4c23a','','Version 060207 \"Cleaning Day\":\r\n- Outcoded Letoscript (at least mostly)\r\n- Outcoded most parts of Shayan\'s Subrace Engine - have plans to replace with a custom lightweight subrace system. Going to keep the XP engine, though that will be modified shortly.\r\n- The crucial parts of Shayan\'s code remain in the mod for functionality, until those get re-coded.\r\n\r\n...hm, so wiped under the carpet those things didn\'t like.'),(652,'7a5753aba7','','Funny thou, the way they handle \'rp\' coaching in there reminds us when we had \'private\' server.\r\n\r\nSome of us liked it, but most not\r\n\r\nits just matter of choice and what play style you like or can handle...\r\n\r\nfor the record, I can :wink: \r\n\r\n-Q'),(653,'bbd6144108','','Personally, I like the way they have their rules, though I do not like the way they police them. Specially, when it seems that at least to what I can see, while their DMs are good at running plots, their Middle-earth knowledge is not necessarily that good. Like suggesting that elves could get ill. (Primary reason I play D&D Paladin there - immunity to disease.)\r\n\r\nAlso, it might be that we\'ve hit a stagnated perioid, or when they are preparing the next version of their character class hak coming out soon, but I personally favour a bit more rapid-paced versioning.\r\n\r\nWell, I\'m currently rewriting some underlying engine code to be more simple, and a new alpha of Elder Days should be up soonish to test a bit. Only one script that doesn\'t compile (may have something to do with me deleting 5000 lines from it).'),(654,'9ac667f59d','From the depths of the IRC','More specifically, QuakeNet.\r\n\r\nWe don\'t have a channel there, though, but I\'d prefer that we relocate from Stratics to either QuakeNet or (preferably) IRCNet.\r\n\r\nThis is from a query with Lómion:\r\n\r\n[quote:9ac667f59d]18:22 <Red_> How\'re things going?\r\n18:27 <Mithfindel> Pretty well. I have some homework to do, but currently trying to have a look at XCrown\'s Private ME.\r\n18:27 <Mithfindel> (Owl is currently hosting it.)\r\n18:27 <Red_> Is it any good?\r\n18:27 <Mithfindel> See #wpnwn\r\n18:27 <Mithfindel> Crashed just after loading, when I turned my view.\r\n18:30 <Red_> how is the scripting going?\r\n18:35 <Mithfindel> Hm, right now shoudl do some homework, but all the scripts compile.\r\n18:35 <Mithfindel> Some functionality missing, but otherwise going fine.\r\n18:35 <Red_> righto\r\n18:35 <Mithfindel> Ok, I\'ve got a wrong number, so I need to hunt a bit to get the message thru...\r\n18:35 <Red_> how do you want me to send you quest ideas?\r\n18:36 <Mithfindel> E-mail would do fine.\r\n18:41 <Mithfindel> (Um, in case you don\'t have a working e-mail, juho.ratava@mbnet.fi will do fine.)\r\n18:45 <Red_> yah, as in, text outlining ideas or actual NPC conversation?\r\n19:05 <Mithfindel> Outlines, we\'ll do the convos with the toolset straight.\r\n19:05 <Mithfindel> If you have ideas how to implement it, those are welcome, though.\r\n19:06 <Red_> ok\r\n19:06 <Red_> been thinking about the death- perma death thing\r\n19:06 <Red_> what happens to the non-noldor who loose all their lives\'?\r\n19:15 <Mithfindel> Hm, depends...\r\n19:16 <Mithfindel> ...for other elves, I think the effect could be the same. Now, this leaves us humans, orcs and dwarves.\r\n19:16 * Mithfindel curses MatLab\r\n19:17 <Red_> MAtlab?\r\n19:17 <Red_> Erm, was thinking something along the lines of 1 level lost for humans, 2 levels for edain/dwarves...\r\n19:17 <Red_> permadeath for orcs?\r\n19:24 <Mithfindel> Hm, depends on how good we make orcs.\r\n19:24 <Mithfindel> Since the orcs are supposed to be more cannon fodder, then it might be that they need not to worry that much.\r\n19:28 <Red_> Aye, but player-orcs are going to be major villains, no?\r\n19:28 <Red_> kind of like orc-commandos\r\n19:30 <Red_> would have them at least equal to sindar/silvans\r\n19:33 <Mithfindel> *nods*\r\n19:34 <Mithfindel> And when I curse MatLab, I actually curse this...\r\n19:34 <Mithfindel> ??? Error: <a href=\"error:/net/homes/u056/ratava/nlo/fzero_bisection.m,44,1\">File: fzero_bisection.m Line: 44 \r\n\r\nColumn: 1</a>\r\n19:34 <Mithfindel> This statement is incomplete.\r\n19:34 <Mithfindel> So, my code has an error on that line... um, it\'s kinda empty?\r\n19:42 <Mithfindel> Hey! Another computer gave another error message... good, now that\'s better.\r\n19:43 <Red_> err, another error message is good?\r\n19:44 <Mithfindel> Yes, because it told me what the error was.\r\n19:44 <Mithfindel> Error in loop.\r\n19:44 <Mithfindel> Usually, the expression where there\'s another condition is written \"else if\"\r\n19:45 <Mithfindel> However, in MatLab, that is \"elseif\"\r\n19:45 <Mithfindel> And that\'s what I had for an error there.\r\n19:46 <Mithfindel> (MatLab is kind of a tool for creating mathematical programs, or as it does say itself, \"the language of \r\n\r\nmathematical computing\"\r\n19:48 <Red_> Ah\r\n19:49 <Red_> Sounds like something I\'m gonna be learning =\\\r\n19:49 <Red_> what about normal death penalties for loosing a \'life\'?\r\n19:50 <Mithfindel> Hm, minor xp and gold penalties, no risk of losing a level?\r\n19:50 <Mithfindel> And then, when out of tokens, you start losing levels?\r\n19:50 <Mithfindel> Hm, needs some planning.\r\n19:53 <Red_> yeah, what I was thinking\r\n19:53 <Red_> we going to have like, \'cursed\' after you get rez\'d / spawn near?\r\n19:53 <Mithfindel> Hm, seems nice, if that option is picked.\r\n19:54 <Mithfindel> Otherwise, the spawn options would be \"closest town\" and \"home\".\r\n19:54 <Red_> If you spawn to town then you don\'t get cursed?\r\n19:54 <Red_> hm, sounds ok to me\r\n19:54 <Mithfindel> Though, that needs to remember factions, so that good guys don\'t spawn in Angband...\r\n19:55 <Mithfindel> (As funny as it would be otherwise.)\r\n19:55 <Red_> *grins* That\'d be great fdun\r\n19:56 <Red_> shotgun DM when people are testing... =p\r\n19:56 <Mithfindel> So, that\'s like when someone got cocky to DM in early RoME... visit from a few Balrogs & Wyrms.\r\n19:57 <Mithfindel> (I remember seeing a screenshot.)\r\n19:58 <Mithfindel> Though, we do have this area \"Hells of Iron\".\r\n19:59 <Mithfindel> Also, for the odd event we might allow a usually forbidden PC, I think I\'m going to do a \"Get outta Hell free\" \r\n\r\ncard.\r\n19:59 <Red_> Oh?\r\n20:00 <Mithfindel> (The elven word that originally meant \"hell\" does in modern elvish mean \"custody\"...\r\n20:00 <Red_> Expand a little on that..\r\n20:00 <Red_> (yeah, figured ;) )\r\n20:01 <Red_> Hm, why would we allow banned PCS?\r\n20:02 <Mithfindel> Well, for a special event we might want someone play as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity a petty dwarf.\r\n20:02 <Mithfindel> For example.\r\n20:03 <Red_> Ah\r\n20:03 <Red_> they wouldn\'t get very high level...\r\n20:03 <Mithfindel> (Like, if you didn\'t notice, this Chal Arniman fellow is a PC played by a DM in MERPUK)\r\n20:04 <Red_> did notice\r\n20:04 <Mithfindel> Also, there might be a rare possibility where a banned class might be allowed, specially when there\'s a ton of \r\n\r\nnew classes in NWN2.\r\n20:04 <Mithfindel> Reference: Mogthrashir, RoME.\r\n20:05 <Mithfindel> (And I am not planning to get that the more often to happen than Mog happened on RoME)\r\n20:05 <Red_> Point: which classes are we banning?\r\n20:06 <Mithfindel> The original list had base class: Monk\r\n20:06 <Mithfindel> PrCs: RDD, Shifter, Shadowdancer\r\n20:06 <Mithfindel> If possible, outcode the AA fireballs as Fire Arrows.\r\n20:06 <Mithfindel> *Flame Arrows\r\n20:07 <Mithfindel> On the case of \"cutting some slack\": When I deleted unwanted parts of the subrace engine, the mod shrunk by over \r\n\r\n1 MB.\r\n20:07 <Red_> wow...\r\n20:07 <Red_> I think SD would be good for laiquendi, personally\r\n20:07 <Mithfindel> Admitted, I have to re-code some, but still.\r\n20:07 <Mithfindel> *nods*\r\n20:08 <Red_> maybe for goblins.. but not for anyone else\r\n20:08 <Mithfindel> Might add that for high-level laiquendi as a racial ability?\r\n20:08 <Red_> why shifter?\r\n20:08 <Red_> Aye, that\'d be good\r\n20:08 <Red_> *thinks of Beorn*\r\n20:08 <Mithfindel> Beorn never shifted into Greater Mummy or elemental?\r\n20:09 <Mithfindel> Okay, might be evil-only on the some forms... but still, there are a lot of things that aren\'t really that \r\n\r\nappropriate.\r\n20:09 <Red_> Aye, but we can change them, can\'t we?\r\n20:09 <Mithfindel> Not sure.\r\n20:09 <Red_> bear, super bear, unberkick ass bear...\r\n20:09 <Mithfindel> Can change at least the summons, but I am not so sure \'bout the forms.\r\n20:09 <Red_> heheh\r\n20:10 <Red_> Hmm, might be best not to have it, then\r\n20:10 <Red_> RDD?\r\n20:10 <Red_> Sounds like afairly evil class to me\r\n20:10 <Mithfindel> Dragon Wings... otherwise, it\'s just a \"make my caster be a melee fighter\" class.\r\n20:10 <Mithfindel> Might allow a few levels...\r\n20:10 <Red_> Melkor ben doing some experiments on a servant..\r\n20:10 <Mithfindel> ...but, not to the wings?\r\n20:10 <Red_> been*\r\n20:10 <Red_> Hm..\r\n20:11 <Mithfindel> Hm, have to think.\r\n20:11 <Red_> if it\'s a 20 cap, there won\'t be much chnace of that\r\n20:11 <Red_> they\'ll either be good at melee, or good at casting. hard to be noth\r\n20:11 <Mithfindel> Huh? Wings are like level 10, or are they even before?\r\n20:11 <Mithfindel> Wings: Level 9\r\n20:12 <Mithfindel> Level 10: Immunity to sleep, paralysis and fire, gain darkvision\r\n20:12 <Mithfindel> So, we might well allow a few levels...\r\n20:12 <Red_> For an orc, doesn\'t sound too bad\r\n20:12 <Red_> Aye\r\n20:12 <Red_> we\'re not having caster caps, I take it?\r\n20:12 <Mithfindel> Still, winged orcs...\r\n20:13 <Mithfindel> Hm, no need to have those at lv20 cap.\r\n20:13 <Red_> *grins* Would be funny, seeing them try to fly...\r\n20:13 <Mithfindel> Still, orcs breathing fire.\r\n20:13 <Red_> Eh, less amusing\r\n20:13 <Mithfindel> Starting from lv3\r\n20:13 <Mithfindel> And anyway, to become such, we\'d need a charismatic orc.\r\n20:13 <Mithfindel> (As the base classes are Bard or Sorc)\r\n20:14 <Mithfindel> Ultimately, we\'ll have evil men... but that will take some time.\r\n20:14 <Red_> Orcs have to have leaders, don\'t they?\r\n20:14 <Red_> leadership= charisma, as far as NWN goes\r\n20:14 <Red_> unless we could put in a leadership skill? =p\r\n20:14 <Mithfindel> Well, we do have three extra skills, if we make our own crafting system.\r\n20:14 <Mithfindel> (The NWN crafting skills)\r\n20:15 <Red_> Hm...\r\n20:15 <Mithfindel> Though, again, I don\'t know if we want someone to back up his/her/its leadership by saying \"i have rank blah in \r\n\r\nskill blah, noobz\"\r\n20:15 <Red_> yeah, good point\r\n20:16 <Mithfindel> And anyway, there is persuade, bluff, intimidate.\r\n20:16 <Mithfindel> Discipline and concentration, a well.\r\n20:16 <Red_> Going to have to encourage people to take spot and listen etc.. I intend to use them heavily, at least in combat \r\n\r\narcs..\r\n20:16 <Mithfindel> The approach as in MERP would work: Ditch invisibility as an effect.\r\n20:16 <Mithfindel> (Though, perhaps not totally, but give a hide & ms bonus, instead?)\r\n20:17 <Red_> yah, that sounds better\r\n20:17 <Red_> say, +10/+10 for invis, +20/ + 20 improved?\r\n20:17 <Mithfindel> True Sight: Changed to +gazillion in spot.\r\n20:17 <Mithfindel> Sounds nice.\r\n20:17 <Red_> and see invis +,say, 12?\r\n20:17 <Mithfindel> So, see invisible +10 spot, , True Sight +20?\r\n20:18 <Mithfindel> Though, we do already have Clairvoyance/Clairaudience (+10 to both spot & listen)\r\n20:18 <Red_> if see invis is +12, TS should be +22\r\n20:18 <Red_> True\r\n20:18 <Mithfindel> Admitted, these spells would have that only for spot.\r\n20:18 <Red_> ok, maybe +5 for see invis\r\n20:18 <Red_> clairvoyance +10, TS +20\r\n20:19 <Red_> works for me\r\n20:19 <Mithfindel> Don\'t forget listen... clairvoyance may well be better by having the bonus to both spells.\r\n20:19 <Red_> aye, comes out as +15 or so doesn\'t it?\r\n20:19 <Red_> ok, make TS +25\r\n20:19 <Mithfindel> *nods*\r\n20:19 <Red_> hm, should probably test this, but start with those numbers?\r\n20:19 <Mithfindel> Then, Bards have \"Amplify\"\r\n20:19 <Mithfindel> *nods*\r\n20:20 <Red_> lucky bards ;)\r\n20:20 <Mithfindel> Spell modifications will come in last, anyway.\r\n20:20 <Red_> yeah\r\n20:20 <Red_> monk, agreed, is out\r\n20:20 <Red_> RDD probably out\r\n20:20 <Red_> shifter unless we can nerf it?\r\n20:20 <Red_> hm, ok\r\n20:20 <Mithfindel> (hold it a bit, copying this to a log file)\r\n[/quote:9ac667f59d]\r\n\r\nDiscuss?'),(655,'2e2f71b2d0','','As a note, we\'re dropping the caster cap as NWN2 doesn\'t look to have levels above 20, so it seems a bit pointless.\r\n\r\nM'),(656,'19fb46e0cb','Estolad; Combat arc','Ok, these are the notes I was working from tonight, will flesh out later when I have some time:\r\n\r\nlevels 1-2: 1) SE of Doriath; Wolf hunt.\r\n 2) NE of Estolad; Agitated wildlife\r\n 3) SE of Doriath(?); Murderous elves\r\n\r\nlevels 3-5: 1) Borders of Nan Elmoth; Retrieve supplies.\r\n 2) E of Estolad; Protect farmers\r\n 3) Borders of Nan Elmoth; Detective work (tower)\r\n\r\nlevels 6-10: 1) S of Estolad; Camp hunt.\r\n 2) Blue Mtn; Close- protection team..\r\n 3) S. Himlad; Don\'t shoot the messenger.. Or do.\r\n\r\nlevels 11-15: 1) NE of Estolad; Supply lines\r\n 2) S of Estolad; Bandit\'s getting hungry..\r\n 3) S. Hithlum; Seize their weapons!\r\n 4) N. Ossiriand; Assault the caravan-raiders.\r\n\r\nlevels 16+: Engame, including: - Destroy the boats\r\n - Camp is burning!\r\n - Prisoner = information\r\n - Defend the pass'),(657,'b2871c9658','','Yes, I\'d say that there\'s no need for a caster gap.\r\n\r\nPerhaps enforce even distribution of classes: If you have one class, clear. Two classes, 10 levels each at lv20. Three or four classes, at least 5 levels each.\r\n\r\n(NWN2 will allow four classes, one of which is prestige class only.)'),(658,'5d84cb10a7','','060311a: Letoscript removed, and except for XP distribution, Shayan\'s subrace engine removed. Lost about 1 MB worth of s